Any Way To Lighten Ink Shades In Vintage Pens?

[HalloweenHJB]

[i looked to see if this issue had already been addressed, but didn't find a thread. Apologies if I missed it.]

 

I was wondering about if there is a good technique to lighten inks that I use in vintage (mostly lever fillers with a black ink sac).

 

When using the same ink --from the same bottle-- in modern pens, the ink is several shades lighter than when I use it in the lever-filler vintage pens. The difference with some inks is significant --almost like a completely different ink color.

 

Any ideas either on WHY the ink gets so dark in vintage pens, and HOW to lighten it? Or is this simply part of the magic of vintage vs. modern pens that I should accept?

Edited October 22, 2014 by HalloweenHJB

[fabri00]

Vintage pens normally have a more abundant flow of ink: this is the reason why it look darker in color.

If you adjust the flow, you will adjust also the shade.

[lgsoltek]

I wish my modern pens were as wet as vintage pens...

[Lou Erickson]

If you don't want to adjust the pen, you might be able to dilute the ink a little with some distilled water. Start slow, and keep track of what you try so you can reproduce it later.

 

As others have said, vintage pens tend to be a little wetter. If you're using any pressure at all, try to use less.

[HalloweenHJB]

If you don't want to adjust the pen, you might be able to dilute the ink a little with some distilled water. Start slow, and keep track of what you try so you can reproduce it later.

 

As others have said, vintage pens tend to be a little wetter. If you're using any pressure at all, try to use less.

 

Thanks to all for the advice. It's good to know that it does not seem to be an issue of the ink sac --that was what I had wondered at first. Since most replacement ink sacs are black silicone, I was wondering if the sac was affecting (reacting to?) the ink.

 

The idea of distilled water may be a good option. I'll have to give it a try. I've attached a photo to give those who don't use vintage pens a visual of the dramatic difference (and sorry about the shadows from the morning sun):

 

[Sandy1]

If you don't want to adjust the pen, you might be able to dilute the ink a little with some distilled water. Start slow, and keep track of what you try so you can reproduce it later.

 

As others have said, vintage pens tend to be a little wetter. If you're using any pressure at all, try to use less.

 

+1

 

Dilution - A Rough Guide @ Post № 23 : https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/218161-need-help-selecting-my-first-japanese-pens/?p=2315439

 

I've posted a few samples of diluted ink in the ICS&T Forum, so they'll show a range of results from different inks.

 

As a rule of thumb, I found that most inks can handle dilution to 60% concentration before side-effects become bothersome.

 

Bye,

S1

[LeonW]

I can't believe that the same Ink could have improved so much by using the vintage FP - I am in the market for a vintage Pen now!☺

[amberleadavis]

You can also dilute it and make it more resiliant by adding ghost blue. At more than 30%, the ink becomes noticably lighter in a modern pen, so start with 30% to make it about the same color in a vintage pen.

[Sandy1]

You can also dilute it and make it more resiliant by adding ghost blue. At more than 30%, the ink becomes noticably lighter in a modern pen, so start with 30% to make it about the same color in a vintage pen.

 

Ah, has someone been drawing a few too many ghosts?

 

If I may, to more clearly state our dearest amberleadavis' suggestion, Noodler's Blue Ghost ink can be used instead of water to give a lighter Value and, as Blue Ghost is a member of Noodler's family of 'bulletproof' inks, one might notice that such a blend is somewhat more resilient to domestic liquids.

 

Bye,

Ms Fussy

[ac12]

Your comparison is not valid.

The reason is the vintage pen you are using has a flex nib. And a flex nib like that will put down a lot more ink when you flex it.

The non flexed part of the writing with the Waterman (like the upstrokes) seems to be close to the color out of the Levinger.

I would guess that if you used a vintage pen without a flex nib, the color of the ink line would be closer to that of the Levinger.

 

The Levinger can also be made to write darker, by adjusting the nib to increase the ink flow.

[amberleadavis]

Yes, Sandy... today, my avatar is in therapy about the ghosts.

 

AC12 - I think the point is that the OP likes the color that comes from the Levenger. He would like to lighten what is produced in his vintage pen, which as you note, "flex nib like that will put down a lot more ink when you flex it." Hence, lightening the value of the ink coming out of the vintage pen would either require adjusting the flow on the vintage pen, or adjusting the color of the ink. As a non-meddler of nibs, I suggest ink tinkering.

[HalloweenHJB]

Your comparison is not valid.

The reason is the vintage pen you are using has a flex nib. And a flex nib like that will put down a lot more ink when you flex it.

The non flexed part of the writing with the Waterman (like the upstrokes) seems to be close to the color out of the Levinger.

I would guess that if you used a vintage pen without a flex nib, the color of the ink line would be closer to that of the Levinger.

 

The Levinger can also be made to write darker, by adjusting the nib to increase the ink flow.

 

Oh my! Not a valid comparison!

 

I see your point. Yes, the Waterman has a fairly soft flex nib, and yes, it usually lays down a lot of ink in comparison to the very firm nib of the modern pens I have. My original question concerned more the issue of whether there was some effect from the black silicone ink sac, but that seems not to be the case.

 

My main concern was that when I fill the vintage pens, I have to consider how dark the ink will come out, compared to the actual color advertised for that ink. In other words, I find that I must buy much lighter shades of ink so that they will not come out so very dark on the paper. But I guess I can learn to live with it...

[Bo Bo Olson]

I can not see, why one would want to get rid of the advantage of using a different nib width/flex to try to have the very same color, when that color will change when you use a different paper.

 

Look at Sandy's grand ink reviews using 5-6 normal, easy to get pens, on 4-5 different papers.

Some times I'd think she was using completely different inks, but she's not....just different widths on different papers.

 

Semi-flex and the more flexible nibs write wetter than true regular flex or nails because the tines bend easy.

In fact some times I find a semi-flex nib will drown shading by being too wet. Depending on the ink, often I like F&M in true regular flex.

 

I keep saying 'true' regular flex, in the pen companies make semi-nails in modern day mostly.

A true regular flex should have a tad of spring to it.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[HalloweenHJB]

AC12 - I think the point is that the OP likes the color that comes from the Levenger. He would like to lighten what is produced in his vintage pen, which as you note, "flex nib like that will put down a lot more ink when you flex it." Hence, lightening the value of the ink coming out of the vintage pen would either require adjusting the flow on the vintage pen, or adjusting the color of the ink. As a non-meddler of nibs, I suggest ink tinkering.

 

You got it, amberleadavis! That was what I was very clumsily trying to say --the "original" color of the ink was what I was hoping for when I bought it, and with some blues and violets, the hue is close to black when used in my vintage pens. So rather than possibly damaging the nibs with an amateur's tinkering, adjusting the ink seemed more sensible.

 

"Ghost Blue," you say? I'll devise some ingenious experiments!

 

And thanks to all for their helpful advice!

[ac12]

If the ink sac in your pen is black, the ink sac is likely not silicone but a latex rubber.

 

OK, I think the basic problem is the ink. If you do not want that dark shading, you need to select an ink that does not shade as much as Apache Sunset. Apache Sunset is an ink that shades from light to dark an abnormal amount, compared to most inks. So you are fighting a characteristic of the ink itself.

 

My suggestions are

- as others mentioned, dilute the ink. But I think you will still have the shading problem.

- find a light orange ink that does not shade as much when the ink flow is high (as when you flex the nib)

Edited October 22, 2014 by ac12

[Lou Erickson]

I didn't see this till I looked at the picture, but we had a thread a while back from someone frustrated that their orange ink was dark in a particular pen.

 

Turns out they weren't cleaning the pen enough.

 

If you're used to cleaning a C/C pen with a bulb syringe, and how quickly that goes, maybe you're not getting the entire sac or feed clean on the vintage pens, and the darkening you're seeing is other ink.

 

I can't tell from here how you're cleaning it, so had to say it.

 

To check, I'd fill a clean pen with water. Give it a shake or two to get water all over the sac inside. Put the pen nib down in some white paper towels or tissue. Look at the water that seeps from the nib to make sure it's clear.

 

If not, you need to flush more, and maybe consider some pen flush. (Commercial, or one part household white unscented ammonia to nine or ten parts water. It's cheap that way.)

[HalloweenHJB]

Good to know. I'm usually quite finicky (perhaps, unusually so) with my vintage pens, and I do take my time cleaning them between changes of ink, but I had not tried the ammonia method. I'll have to keep that in mind for the future. Thanks for the tip, Lou.

 

ac12: As for shading, I LOVE shading! That's one of the reasons why I love fountain pens and bottled ink so much. So the shading is not what bothers me; it's the overall impression of a much deeper, darker ink that, in some cases, takes the hue almost to a mix with black. So for example, Waterman's "Tender Purple," in a vintage pen, becomes Waterman's "Hardened Purple-Black." You see my dilemma?

 

I've just ordered a bottle of the "Blue Ghost Invisible Ink," so the experiments should commence in a couple of days... FUN.

 

[amberleadavis]

Those colors are so different, it definately looks like some black ink was added.

[ac12]

In my experience, with some/many inks, the ink line will NOT look the same coming out of pens of significant differences in wetness.

I can duplicate your Pelikan/Skyline example with Sheaffer Turquoise out of my Parker 45 and Esterbrook. The Esterbrook is a wet pen. And the more ink the pen puts down more ink on the paper, the darker the ink line will be. I can duplicate this same light/dark ink line with some of my other inks; Cross/Pelikan blue, Waterman Florida blue, and Waterman Green.

 

In the case of your Apache Sunset, remember this is an ink know for its shading. So any variation in the amount of ink put down onto the paper will result in a shading of the ink. Looking at your writing samples, the upstrokes of the Waterman are similar to the Levinger. It is when you are flexing the pen, and laying down more ink that it shades and gets darker (as it should). And to get shading there has to be a difference in the amount of ink that the pen puts down. If you want the down stroke of the Waterman to be as light as the Levinger, you will not get much if any shading, as you are significantly reducing the range of light to dark that the pen/ink can display. As I mentioned, all I can suggest is

- to dilute the ink to make the shading lighter (but that will also lighten the upstrokes as well)

- but really you should get a lighter orange ink that is NOT known to shade like Apache Sunset.

- a 3rd option is to send the pen and an ink and paper sample to a nib meister and have him reduce the flow of ink in the Waterman so the ink line will look like your Levinger. But that will make the ink line from Waterman behave differently when you later change to a different ink, because you have tuned the pen for a specific ink (Apache Sunset).

 

Again with Apache Sunset, you are fighting the basic design of the ink here, and that is to shade through a broad range of density (light to dark) and color from light yellow to dark orange.

 

In the case of your Skyline, it appears to simply be a much wetter pen than your Pelikan, and you are simply seeing the effect of a wet pen putting down more ink on the paper. This is the same as when I use Sheaffer turquoise out or my Parker 45 and my Esterbrook. The ink line of the Esterbrook is DARKER than the P45, because the Esterbrook is a WET pen. My 3 Sklylines are also WET pens, much more so than my Pelikan. You would have to have a nib meister adjust the nib/feed of the Skyline to reduce the ink flow to be similar to that of your Pelikan. Or just switch to a dry ink like Pelikan ink.

 

BTW Pelikans are know to be wet pens, so if you do this same comparison between your Pelikan and a Lamy, you will have the same situation with the Pelikan having the darker ink line.

 

What I am saying is that you CANNOT expect to get the same color ink line out of pens that have a significant different in wetness. This is especially if the ink is lighter in color were there could be a significant range of bright to dark of the ink based on the amount of ink put down. And even more so where the ink has been designed to shade, like Apache Sunset. You will likely not see the big difference with darker inks (like black and blue-black), because the ink is dark to begin with.

 

As you said: "My main concern was that when I fill the vintage pens, I have to consider how dark the ink will come out, compared to the actual color advertised for that ink. In other words, I find that I must buy much lighter shades of ink so that they will not come out so very dark on the paper. But I guess I can learn to live with it..."

So you live with it, try diluting the ink, or have the pen(s) adjusted.

 

I personally just live with it. Certain pen will just write darker than others, given the same ink. But I try to use dry inks in my wet pens, and wet inks in my dry pens, to minimize the effect of wetness.

Edited October 22, 2014 by ac12