Proper Pen Hold For A Chisel Edged Italic Pen?

[Alexande]

Hi, first time poster - long time reader of these forums.

I'll be brief with the backstory because I don't want to waste anybody's time. In fact; Allow me to indent it
- Left handed by nature, always have been.
- Left hand suffered a tendon cut of the forefinger leading to it being impossible to form a tripod grip with the left at all.
- This has lead to atrociously bad handwriting that is both slow and illegible.
- Make decision 2 years previously to try and begin writing with the right hand so that I can actually make it through written college exams this time around
- We reach today and my right handed handwriting has barely improved whatsoever.
- I've got my little lettering set with everything from a fine to what looks like a screwdriver for use on supertanker engines.

I got the idea that somehow writing with an edged pen would actually force me to improve by making me use the consistent letter shapes of a standard Italic hand. Now I'm not so sure. Regardless, I'm willing to keep hacking away at it for the time being, but this is all prologue. My real question is how the hell I'm supposed to hold the damn thing. "Write now" by Getty-Dubay seems to think you can hold the pen in the exact same manner as you would hold a monoline pen which confuses me no end because SURELY as soon as you move your wrist or your fingers you're throwing off the 45 degree pen angle in both it's attitude to the writing LINE as well as it's angle to the vetical axis (especially the way they illustrate it with the barrel forward of the base knuckle of the first finger, pointing way up). But they actually INSIST that you do so "This isn't finger or arm writing! Write from the wrist". How? Moreover, what the hell does "write from the wrist" even mean? See page 62 here >

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jzsFSIFJb9UC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=write+now+pen+hold&source=bl&ots=qPmRZ0tuUz&sig=NH8WYTCXZQw6K4MhuLIu0I2-psk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=atopVLW7OI31aM-QgeAO&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=write%20now%20pen%20hold&f=false

To be honest, I'm actually very, very angry that I was effectively tricked into buying that books whose advice on pen hold, arm position etc contained fewer words than the last drunken text message I received from a friend.

Lloyd Reynolds handwriting is certainly beautiful (

) but I can't help noticing that he never proceeds at a pace that would be suitable for any kind of PRACTICAL handwriting, much less an exam. He very nearly snaps his pen in two with the amount of pressure his forefinger seems to be exerting and, try as I might, I cannot get up to more than 6 words a minute holding the pen like that (albeit, those 6 are very well formed italic).

The advice of briem.net, which at first looked promising, is so utterly abberrant to what might be called normal pen hold, or indeed anything I've ever seen anyone use in any classroom, ever, that I have, up till now, dismissed it utterly out of (excuse the pun) - hand. (http://66.147.242.192/~operinan/4/4.1.3a/4.1.3.2.penhold.htm)
The idea of squeezing a pen gently across two fingers with it practically flat again the table just doesn't seem to work for me. Franly nothing does. So I was just wondering, for those out there who find they CAN get 30 words a minute out of an edged pen...how do YOU hold it?

Thanks for taking the time to read about my little problems.

additional:

I also have hypermobility in my joints and pretty long fingers. I've seen it intimated around here that these are less than ideal for handwriting, is this actually the case? Seems like it never rains but it pours when it comes to my scrawl

[Randal6393]

Frustration certainly looks like a fountain pen. Sorry to hear of the problems you are having. Perhaps the rare books section of IAMPETH may help. Many of the old texts there show various positions and holds for a fountain pen.

 

A search on "pen hold" on this forum returned over 80 articles on how and why to hold a pen. Many of the pictures show various holds and positions.

 

As far as writing italic with the right hand, keeping the pen at the 45 degree (to the writing perpendicular) is a matter of practice. Usually, novices start by drawing a series of crosses (up-and-down) and seeing how close to the same width the perpendicular and horizontal are. Then, add a crossbar, from low-left to high-right, and try for the thinnest bar you can make. If you can do that, you are ready to start with the ductus (order of strokes) for the letter-form.

 

Have you investigated ways to hold your pen in the left hand that don't require a tripod grip? Maybe a brace of some kind may also be of help.

 

Best of luck,

[Mickey]

I don't have hyperflexible joints, but I do have large hands and long fingers. The length of my fingers is not an issue as long as the pen is long enough to hold comfortably. The hyperflexibility should not be an issue if you hold the pen comfortably, neither loose nor tight. A relaxed grip will allow you to feel the nib edge on the page. How you move the pen is a separate issue. Some writers emphasize finger movement, others the wrist, and some, myself included, emphasize arm movement. (I demonstrated in one thread that one could write acceptable, cursive Italic with the fingers and wrist immobilized.

 

Work on relaxing your grip to the point where you can really feel the edge, learn the most basic strokes to establish what combination of wrist and arm works best for you, then start practicing the letter forms.

 

BTW, it's possible to effect a tripod-like grip using the 2nd and 3rd fingers and thumb, letting index finger rest next to the 2nd finger. You would probably adjust to this change more rapidly than shifting to the right hand.

[Paddler]

What Mickey said. Shift your pen to 2nd and 3rd fingers and thumb. Progress will be faster than changing hands.

[Alexande]

I don't have hyperflexible joints, but I do have large hands and long fingers. The length of my fingers is not an issue as long as the pen is long enough to hold comfortably. The hyperflexibility should not be an issue if you hold the pen comfortably, neither loose nor tight. A relaxed grip will allow you to feel the nib edge on the page. How you move the pen is a separate issue. Some writers emphasize finger movement, others the wrist, and some, myself included, emphasize arm movement. (I demonstrated in one thread that one could write acceptable, cursive Italic with the fingers and wrist immobilized.

 

Work on relaxing your grip to the point where you can really feel the edge, learn the most basic strokes to establish what combination of wrist and arm works best for you, then start practicing the letter forms.

 

BTW, it's possible to effect a tripod-like grip using the 2nd and 3rd fingers and thumb, letting index finger rest next to the 2nd finger. You would probably adjust to this change more rapidly than shifting to the right hand.

 

What Mickey said. Shift your pen to 2nd and 3rd fingers and thumb. Progress will be faster than changing hands.

 

So far as I can tell, both you gentlement are advocating a grip that I at first took for "the alternative hold" as illustrated in "Write now" by Getty Dubay, but which actually has the pen barrel rest on the 3rd - i.e. ring - finger and not on the second - i.e. middle - finger (as it does in the conventional tripod grip that is unsuitable in my case due to the missing tendon. I might add here than I do "use" a tripod grip. It's just the my forefinger is absolutely straight, thus precluding using it for downstrokes). I can produce some vague images of letters in this manner, having tried your suggestion out - hence the lateness of my reply - but the writing is actually several times worse than than that which I can produce with my ordinary left handed death grip Also, they have roughly a 50 degree backslant now and this variety of pen grip can apparently only be used with the hand laying on it's side, with the arm parallel rather than perpendicular to the writing line. The nearness of the pen point to the desk utterly precludes any more of a vertical pen barrel with balancing on its tip with the whole arm clear of the desk. I can find no pictures of this grip, nor any mention of it, anywhere on the internet except here.

 

Have either of you actually seen this grip in operation? Do you use it or know anyone who uses it? Or is this speculation?

 

Frustration certainly looks like a fountain pen. Sorry to hear of the problems you are having. Perhaps the rare books section of IAMPETH may help. Many of the old texts there show various positions and holds for a fountain pen.

 

A search on "pen hold" on this forum returned over 80 articles on how and why to hold a pen. Many of the pictures show various holds and positions.

 

As far as writing italic with the right hand, keeping the pen at the 45 degree (to the writing perpendicular) is a matter of practice. Usually, novices start by drawing a series of crosses (up-and-down) and seeing how close to the same width the perpendicular and horizontal are. Then, add a crossbar, from low-left to high-right, and try for the thinnest bar you can make. If you can do that, you are ready to start with the ductus (order of strokes) for the letter-form.

 

Have you investigated ways to hold your pen in the left hand that don't require a tripod grip? Maybe a brace of some kind may also be of help.

 

Best of luck,

Thanks for your input, but I've already been on iampeth. In fact, I spent the better part of an entire year trying to learn spencerian with my right hand before throwing up the effort as a total waste of time, as I do not have the recommended 8 years of practice that the new compendium suggested. As I stated in my first post I have been a long time reader of this forum and have yet to come across anything resembling a uniform opinion on how to hold a chisel edge for rapid italic. As I also said before, i have no problem producing italic calligraphy with my right hand, it's just not acceptable to write at 6 words a minute in an exam and the stiffened hand and careful shoulder drag on an elevated board that produces that is not suitable for an exam.

 

I wonder if any of you fellahs know if ken fraser would mind me private messaging him as he seems to be the man in the know about this.

[brunico]

As above.

 

I'm right-handed, and I let the index finger rest. It's basically the tripod grip, the grip Lloyd Reynolds is using, but with the fingers all shifted up one. I started off with the classic tripod grip, until one day in school my little finger was sore from dragging across the page, so I switched. It made no difference at all to my handwriting: it was simply more comfortable.

 

I say all this just because ideas on the internet get repeated and abbreviated and end up taking on the force of a prescription, which can often be more confusing than helpful. So I'd never heard of the tripod grip until FPN, when I started doubting my ability to hold a pen. But I hold the pen in the correct position, and there's no strain on my hand, so my grip is, for me, the correct one.

 

Similarly, once I came across the idea of arm writing, I started doubting my ability to write at all. But after discussion here, and observation of my own practice, I actually think I'm not unusual among seasoned italicists. My forearm does most of the movement, with some adjustments made by the fingers (particularly on exaggeratedly long descenders where otherwise I'd have to move my forearm a whole inch), my shoulder is relaxed, and the whole assembly seems to vibrate around the heel of my hand, which is usually resting on the desk. It's a bit like playing the piano: you can't get a good sound if you're all tense, you can't bang out chords with your fingertips and you can't do rapid trills just using your arm. But to reduce all this to "write with your arm" - wrenched out of context - is only going to mislead you into holding a pen like a seismometer.

 

I don't have a high opinion of Getty-Dubay, but I do agree with them that the pen hold should be the same for edged and pointed pens. Yet again I started scratching my head when people on FPN said things like "don't hold a fountain pen like a ballpoint," because that's precisely what I've done since the day I was taught to hold a pen: same grip, same angle of elevation, same angle to the writing line, the lot. So that's another lot of confusing advice.

 

It doesn't mean throwing off the pen angle. If I'm writing an a, I don't notice any movement in my fingers. If I'm writing a g, I tend to pull my fingers inwards on the descender but not move them right to left on the tail (or not much, anyway), so the pen is maintaining the same angle. Most people who have an italic nib seem to have angles all over the place, from doing most of the work with their fingers: it can't be comfortable, it's going to be nigh on impossible to keep the nib flat on the paper, and I suspect this is where a lot of complaints that italic nibs are scratchy come from.

 

I'm not sure I can really add anything except not to take internet maxims literally and to suggest writing with a very broad italic (3mm dip pen, 2.4mm or 3.8mm Pilot Parallel) if you feel you need to loosen your arm up and do less manipulation with your fingers.

 

I have been a long time reader of this forum and have yet to come across anything resembling a uniform opinion on how to hold a chisel edge for rapid italic

 

Not sure what the consensus is on this forum - many people here buy italic nibs to get line variation rather than to shape their letters in a particular way - but outside it, I think there is a consensus, though maybe not for the left hand. The important thing is to be comfortable in your hold and consistent in your angle. It may be slow at first, but you'll be saving time in the long run, because you won't be wasting effort manipulating your fingers up and down and back and forth for every stroke. There's no reason you can't eventually write with an italic fountain pen as fast as you can with a biro or a gel pen or a rollerball, so ignore anyone who tells you otherwise. Using an italic nib is ridiculously easy, but it doesn't get on well with bad habits.

 

Anyway, welcome to FPN.

Edited September 30, 2014 by brunico

[Alexande]

I spoke a little too soon there, using what we may terms the "third finger as the rest grip" and with the paper in a position usually more used by right hander and using very nearly a hooked grip I can form legible letters this way.

It's just no faster then my cack-handed, pinchy, tendonless forefinger atttempt at a trip grip. What is gained in a usable "downstroke" finger that was previously absent, so to speak, is lost by the neccessity of now writing with a hooked left arm and the thumb now trying to push against the every one of the fingers, upwardly.

[Alexande]

As above.

 

I'm right-handed, and I let the index finger rest. It's basically the tripod grip, the grip Lloyd Reynolds is using, but with the fingers all shifted up one. I started off with the classic tripod grip, until one day in school my little finger was sore from dragging across the page, so I switched. It made no difference at all to my handwriting: it was simply more comfortable.

 

I say all this just because ideas on the internet get repeated and abbreviated and end up taking on the force of a prescription, which can often be more confusing than helpful. So I'd never heard of the tripod grip until FPN, when I started doubting my ability to hold a pen. But I hold the pen in the correct position, and there's no strain on my hand, so my grip is, for me, the correct one.

 

Similarly, once I came across the idea of arm writing, I started doubting my ability to write at all. But after discussion here, and observation of my own practice, I actually think I'm not unusual among seasoned italicists. My forearm does most of the movement, with some adjustments made by the fingers (particularly on exaggeratedly long descenders where otherwise I'd have to move my forearm a whole inch), my shoulder is relaxed, and the whole assembly seems to vibrate around the heel of my hand, which is usually resting on the desk. It's a bit like playing the piano: you can't get a good sound if you're all tense, you can't bang out chords with your fingertips and you can't do rapid trills just using your arm. But to reduce all this to "write with your arm" - wrenched out of context - is only going to mislead you into holding a pen like a seismometer.

 

I don't have a high opinion of Getty-Dubay, but I do agree with them that the pen hold should be the same for edged and pointed pens. Yet again I started scratching my head when people on FPN said things like "don't hold a fountain pen like a ballpoint," because that's precisely what I've done since the day I was taught to hold a pen: same grip, same angle of elevation, same angle to the writing line, the lot. So that's another lot of confusing advice.

 

It doesn't mean throwing off the pen angle. If I'm writing an a, I don't notice any movement in my fingers. If I'm writing a g, I tend to pull my fingers inwards on the descender but not move them right to left on the tail (or not much, anyway), so the pen is maintaining the same angle. Most people who have an italic nib seem to have angles all over the place, from doing most of the work with their fingers: it can't be comfortable, it's going to be nigh on impossible to keep the nib flat on the paper, and I suspect this is where a lot of complaints that italic nibs are scratchy come from.

 

I'm not sure I can really add anything except not to take internet maxims literally and to suggest writing with a very broad italic (3mm dip pen, 2.4mm or 3.8mm Pilot Parallel) if you feel you need to loosen your arm up and do less manipulation with your fingers.

Thanks my man. That's pretty interesting and chimes in with a lot of what I've discovered so far. E.g. using ken fraser's grip shown here https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/235169-i-hold-my-pen-incorrectly/ (third post down) and using a bit more "writing from the arm" than getty-dubay suggest (i.e. some writing from the arm as opposed to zero, which as I said in my first post, boggles my mind as to how you're supposed to maintain a 45 degree angle to the line much less a consistent vertical angle of pen barrel) and I managed to get some very nice italics.

 

Problem was that it seemed to me like there was a hard cap on just how fast this writing can actually be. I found it difficult to keep them neat at anything above 10 words a minute, but perhaps that's lack of practice of that particular technique (which seems very similar to yours) Maybe I just need to really REALLY work on that and I'll develop something like 25 words a min, which according to my calculations is just what I need for my exams. Do tell though, what kind of speed can YOU develop writing in a fairly neat italic hand. Would you think it suitable for exams or is it, by it's nature, slow? Something tells me it could be brought right up because pulling from the shoulder is essentially the same as the new palmer method, albeit palmer style has smaller letter counters, and I've seen someone writing that at close to 70 words a minute

 

The problem is, when trying out all this various pieces of advice from people is you can never truly KNOW if it's working or if it's just a case of "I didn't spend enough time actually practicing to find out". Even if you sink 4+ hours of time into various holds etc on your off days, as I do.

 

But yeah, it seems what you're saying is basically confirming the nasty little suspicion I've had all along which is that Getty-Dubay just omit to mention that arms movement is utterly essential for edged pen italic. I have yet to find a single video of anyone writing it who is not, clearly, using a pulling forearm. But I see you already know how it is. You read the book / forum post and then you think "Well they've got better writing than me so the must be right".

 

 

EDIT [Having put some advice into effect]:

 

Just in case anyone is interested I'll keep this thread updated on my progress with a fine chisel end and formal italic with a non dominant hand.

 

Although I have to say right now that Brunico's advice mixed with a "frazer type" grip seems to be yielding very promising results. I've gone back to it after a long hiatus of shunning it thinking it was more for slow formal calligraphy and have just tried developing some speed with it by using the fingers a little (though with frazer's very relaxed hand - see link in last post) and the whole moving arm thing a lot.

 

and I went from 7 words a minute to 15 in less than an hour of practice and it's neat italic too. Looking hopeful. If it actually turns out that less than an inch worths of forearm movement is what is holding me up here I'm going to be going around looking over people's shoulders and sneering "USE YOUR ARM MORE" in vicarious and painful remembrance of my years of scrawl

Edited September 30, 2014 by Alexande

[brunico]

Maybe I just need to really REALLY work on that and I'll develop something like 25 words a min, which according to my calculations is just what I need for my exams. Do tell though, what kind of speed can YOU develop writing in a fairly neat italic hand. Would you think it suitable for exams or is it, by it's nature, slow?

 

Don't ask me. My finals essays (an hour a question) ran only about 600-800 words each! But the examiners agreed with me that quality beats quantity.

 

Observing people in meetings, I see I can write as fast as anyone else. I can't write any other way, though, it's just my normal handwiting, so it had to be fast enough for school and college. As to neatness, well, it keeps up fine with speed unless I'm taking verbatim notes on the phone. That said, I don't do anything as formal as Lloyd Reynolds, and I have some sloppy habits like not forming the arches of m, n and so on particularly well.

 

Edit: cool! Keep us posted with how you're getting on.

Edited September 30, 2014 by brunico

[Mickey]

Thanks my man. That's pretty interesting and chimes in with a lot of what I've discovered so far. E.g. using ken fraser's grip shown here https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/235169-i-hold-my-pen-incorrectly/ (third post down) and using a bit more "writing from the arm" than getty-dubay suggest (i.e. some writing from the arm as opposed to zero, which as I said in my first post, boggles my mind as to how you're supposed to maintain a 45 degree angle to the line much less a consistent vertical angle of pen barrel) and I managed to get some very nice italics.

 

Problem was that it seemed to me like there was a hard cap on just how fast this writing can actually be. I found it difficult to keep them neat at anything above 10 words a minute, but perhaps that's lack of practice of that particular technique (which seems very similar to yours) Maybe I just need to really REALLY work on that and I'll develop something like 25 words a min, which according to my calculations is just what I need for my exams. Do tell though, what kind of speed can YOU develop writing in a fairly neat italic hand. Would you think it suitable for exams or is it, by it's nature, slow? Something tells me it could be brought right up because pulling from the shoulder is essentially the same as the new palmer method, albeit palmer style has smaller letter counters, and I've seen someone writing that at close to 70 words a minute

 

The problem is, when trying out all this various pieces of advice from people is you can never truly KNOW if it's working or if it's just a case of "I didn't spend enough time actually practicing to find out". Even if you sink 4+ hours of time into various holds etc on your off days, as I do.

 

But yeah, it seems what you're saying is basically confirming the nasty little suspicion I've had all along which is that Getty-Dubay just omit to mention that arms movement is utterly essential for edged pen italic. I have yet to find a single video of anyone writing it who is not, clearly, using a pulling forearm. But I see you already know how it is. You read the book / forum post and then you think "Well they've got better writing than me so the must be right".

 

 

EDIT [Having put some advice into effect]:

 

Just in case anyone is interested I'll keep this thread updated on my progress with a fine chisel end and formal italic with a non dominant hand.

 

Although I have to say right now that Brunico's advice mixed with a "frazer type" grip seems to be yielding very promising results. I've gone back to it after a long hiatus of shunning it thinking it was more for slow formal calligraphy and have just tried developing some speed with it by using the fingers a little (though with frazer's very relaxed hand - see link in last post) and the whole moving arm thing a lot.

 

and I went from 7 words a minute to 15 in less than an hour of practice and it's neat italic too. Looking hopeful. If it actually turns out that less than an inch worths of forearm movement is what is holding me up here I'm going to be going around looking over people's shoulders and sneering "USE YOUR ARM MORE" in vicarious and painful remembrance of my years of scrawl

 

First of all, Brunico is absolutely spot on. I would only emphasize (yet again) that whole-arm does not mean big muscles to the exclusion of all others. It means, at least to me, using the muscles best suited to each task or sub-task. Find what works for you. If your index finger doesn't work, find one that does. BTW, the index finger or its substitute need not play any significant role producing down strokes. That's part of what I meant by saying find what works for you. For me, tiny tugs and pushes from the arm substitute for a busy index fingers.

 

Regarding speed, I can write at a fair clip either cursive italic or business hand (Spencerian) and still maintain decent form. I suspect 25 wpm is possible for me, though I doubt I'm capable of finding 25 truly sensible words to write during any 60 second period.

[dms525]

I also would endorse what Brunico wrote. I would add a few points I have not seen shared with the OP:

 

1. It may appear to you that Lloyd Reynolds is applying a lot of pressure when writing, but he was not, at least with a fountain pen.

2. Reynolds' slow speed of writing in the videos is a) for instructional purposes, and for formal italic.

3. A person just learning a new script cannot expect to use it speedily while retaining good letter forms. Learn the forms. Once you have achieved motor memory, let the speed develop naturally. In my experience, this occurs quite gradually over years. (Please think about this as continuing to improve for a long time rather than not being able to write fast until you have used italic for years. The thing about cursive italic is not that it is the fastest possible script you can use but that it retains legibility better than other scripts when speeded up - to a point.)

 

David

 

P.S. If you saw Reynolds' fast italic writing - what he used for personal correspondence, etc. - you would find it very informal and individualistic. (But still very legible!)

[ac12]

Interesting, I read once where a teacher recommended using a pencil or felt tip to learn italic calligraphy.

The idea being you would concentrate on developing the proper stroke, rather than playing with the pen. Once you got the stroke, you can refine with the pen. And for me, I found that true. I tend to tinker with the pen and as a result, I do not have consistent forms.

 

Speed printing has an upper limit to speed, beyond which it breaks down.

Just as my normal cursive is OK, until I have to speed write when taking notes, then it breaks down and looks UGLY.

[Paddler]

"So far as I can tell, both you gentlement are advocating a grip that I at first took for "the alternative hold" as illustrated in "Write now" by Getty Dubay, but which actually has the pen barrel rest on the 3rd - i.e. ring - finger and not on the second - i.e. middle - finger (as it does in the conventional tripod grip that is unsuitable in my case due to the missing tendon. I might add here than I do "use" a tripod grip. It's just the my forefinger is absolutely straight, thus precluding using it for downstrokes). I can produce some vague images of letters in this manner, having tried your suggestion out - hence the lateness of my reply - but the writing is actually several times worse than than that which I can produce with my ordinary left handed death grip Also, they have roughly a 50 degree backslant now and this variety of pen grip can apparently only be used with the hand laying on it's side, with the arm parallel rather than perpendicular to the writing line. The nearness of the pen point to the desk utterly precludes any more of a vertical pen barrel with balancing on its tip with the whole arm clear of the desk. I can find no pictures of this grip, nor any mention of it, anywhere on the internet except here.

Have either of you actually seen this grip in operation? Do you use it or know anyone who uses it? Or is this speculation?"

 

 

I find it puzzling that you have difficulty writing with the pen grip shifted over one finger. I personally do not hold a pen this way, but I can with no difficulty and without loss of either legibility or speed. If you are having better luck with your off hand, do what works.

[Mickey]

I think the problem is (was?) the OP's belief that the index finger needed to play any role in writing other than being the third leg of the tripod. (I prefer to think of the classic pen hold as a loose, three-sectioned collet.) As I mentioned earlier, it is possible to write cursive italic with all the fingers immobilized, also having "quiet" fingers is recommended (if not actually required) for most Spencerian derivatives. In other words, an inflexible forefinger should not be a problem.

 

In my opinion, a workable grip is one which is relaxed, remains so while writing, and keeps the pen point roughly in line with the forearm. (Obviously, this last doesn't put me in 'write solely from the wrist' camp.) After properly securing the pen to the hand, one is free to consider how best to move it across the page.

[Algester]

though I'm a lefty I would say start using the arm drawing technique

[Alexande]

I also would endorse what Brunico wrote. I would add a few points I have not seen shared with the OP:

 

1. It may appear to you that Lloyd Reynolds is applying a lot of pressure when writing, but he was not, at least with a fountain pen.

2. Reynolds' slow speed of writing in the videos is a) for instructional purposes, and for formal italic.

3. A person just learning a new script cannot expect to use it speedily while retaining good letter forms. Learn the forms. Once you have achieved motor memory, let the speed develop naturally. In my experience, this occurs quite gradually over years. (Please think about this as continuing to improve for a long time rather than not being able to write fast until you have used italic for years. The thing about cursive italic is not that it is the fastest possible script you can use but that it retains legibility better than other scripts when speeded up - to a point.)

 

David

 

P.S. If you saw Reynolds' fast italic writing - what he used for personal correspondence, etc. - you would find it very informal and individualistic. (But still very legible!)

 

I'd personally like to see him doing some far less formal and quicker, but legible, right handed italic from him. Sadly, all I can find is his formal calligraphy videos, which, as I said before, offer little in the ways of clues about how to write italic - and here is the KEY word - quickly.

 

 

Gentlemen, I feel I have to be clear here despite all your good intentions and attempts to prevent me wasting my own time: I am not looking to write calligraphy I'm looking for a legible hand that can be written moderately quickly, in a manner suited to exams, with my UNDAMAGED RIGHT HAND. To that END I directed my thoughts toward italic because Getty-Dubay's proposition in "Write Now", right on their first page, that italic is bound to be more legible than other hands struck me as something that essentially HAD to be true. I had tried spencerian (I eventually decided I had neither ten years, nor even three to produce something semi legible in that manner. Doubtless it works eventually but eventually is too far away) eventually I moved on to the palmer method (not helped by a very flat under forearm that complicated that style's particular trick) no joy there either. Further to my original end I came looking for tips for how to write italic with an edged pen. Specifically, what sort of pen hold is appropriate (with the right hand, remember). I was for, instance going to ask for some help with the formal italic "a", as using a fine nib it seems VERY difficult to produce it with a "left push" motion, but I'm working on that.. So I'm hoping all the edged pen using righties will come in here and download what it is that they do to produce something fairly rapid and legible using one. The advice so far is welcome

 

[i'll break flow and direction here to address anyone who wanders into this thread through google, as I wandered into many on here more than a year ago, before I ever posted. One of the key things - That seems to work for me - of right handed italics using a "fine" chisel edged nibs is to constantly instruct yourself that it's "Drag drag drag, Drag down, drag to the right" as much as "Watch that 45 degree angle" as Llyod Reynolds says. You WILL unconciously end up attempting to "round out" and "push out" letters, and saying things like "45 degrees, relax the hand, drag it out" seems to help kill the particular urge to close the hand tight, and use the edge wrong. This is hardly gospel - I'm still at less than 20 words a minute of legible right handed, edged, italics. ]

 

 

We could probably have a thread entitled "What to do when the under-tendon in your left forefinger is bust and you are totally unwilling to attempt to change hands. Busted forefinger, southpaw hypermobility pen styles". In fact, I will probably start one if I make any progress with the suggestions that have been made to that effect.

Be assured that the suggestions of writing with the a pen secured against the ring finger by the middle finger, trying to find a style which doesnt use the forefinger at all etc etc (I might stop here just to say some of you are unintentionally assuming the ergonomics of writing with the left are the same as writing with the right, but mirrored. It is not so, writing must travel left to right along at least ONE straight line, ergo the movement are not just mirrored) are being tried out and evaluated by me in every conceivable arm and paper position. I sink hours daily into the attempt at a rapid legible hand; I am not just ignoring them.

A non moving hand "pushing" up the desk, with the paper laid entirely sideways (as opposed to the vertical), with the all fingers virtually unmoving is producing interestingly rapid and neat results. I will report back about this, though obviously it utterly precludes using a edged pen of any type. Little that I care. Again, the reason for my use of one was the assumption it would force a legible RIGHT handed style, if that became un-necessary I'd gladly pave my drive with edged pens sooner than use them.

 

Best keep the two - distinctly different - topics asunder I think. I look forward to starting the second

 

 

 

Back on topic: For those that write with an edged pen, right handed, with a "conventional" hold and paper position (say, the ken frazer hold detailed in my last post and the paper in front and tipped left a little). Would you say it was better to avoid EVER trying to push the pen left to produce flat tops for a's and g's etc, and just make them two strokes or is it just a matter of practice to get a reliable, non scratchy flat top with a left push?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mickey]

I'd personally like to see him doing some far less formal and quicker, but legible, right handed italic from him. Sadly, all I can find is his formal calligraphy videos, which, as I said before, offer little in the ways of clues about how to write italic - and here is the KEY word - quickly.

 

 

Gentlemen, I feel I have to be clear here despite all your good intentions and attempts to prevent me wasting my own time: I am not looking to write calligraphy I'm looking for a legible hand that can be written moderately quickly, in a manner suited to exams, with my UNDAMAGED RIGHT HAND. To that END I directed my thoughts toward italic because Getty-Dubay's proposition in "Write Now", right on their first page, that italic is bound to be more legible than other hands struck me as something that essentially HAD to be true.

 

 

 

It isn't true. Call it what it is, prejudice or marketing by Getty-Dubay, but it isn't true. I write both hands with equal facility and their degradation with speed is similar. If anything, for me, Spencerian holds up better.

 

Now to answer your final question:

 

For those that write with an edged pen, right handed, with a "conventional" hold and paper position (say, the ken frazer hold detailed in my last post and the paper in front and tipped left a little). Would you say it was better to avoid EVER trying to push the pen left to produce flat tops for a's and g's etc, and just make them two strokes or is it just a matter of practice to get a reliable, non scratchy flat top with a left push?

 

If you write with a light hand and learn to control the orientation of pen shaft, edge, and paper, there is no reason why push strokes should not be practical with anything other than the sharpest edged formal (or crisp) pens. How sharp sharp is is a matter of taste, experience, and ability, but anything called cursive should be capable of easy push strokes for most writers. (That's pretty close to a working definition of cursive grind.)

 

 

 

[Bronze]

I agree with Mickey, I write a lot with italic nibs and 95% of the time (or more) I use the push stroke. I only have one nib (on a fountain pen) that doesn't lend itself to it that easily, and it's a very sharp/crisp italic. Not a nib I would use for writing fast anyway.

 

Writing italic quickly, and having control over the pen while doing it is mostly a matter of practice. Not being able to use the push stroke would certainly slow you down imo, and to rule it out would not be a good idea if you have a need for speed.

[Alexande]

Let me see if I can remember how to do mini quotes right here.

 

It isn't true. Call it what it is, prejudice or marketing by Getty-Dubay, but it isn't true. I write both hands with equal facility and their degradation with speed is similar. If anything, for me, Spencerian holds up better...

Mickey, I think the point they were making was that the loops, ascenders, descenders etc tend to curl into the lines below and above the line that is being written on by people who write styles such as spencerian and palmer quickly. I have seen people writing these styles quickly and they seem to be entirely correct on this matter as far as my anecdotal evidence goes. I am sure you can produce a very neat spencerian hand. Tell me, can you also produce a very neat spencerian hand on standard lined paper of 1.4cm height? As this is the most common variety of paper you are handed to complete an exam on where I am from, and the one I saw the examples I spoke of being written on. Are you sure your curves wouldn't clutter each other, line above line? I think another point they were striking at was that italic letter forms are more "recognizable", inherently, (especially to tea-swilling brits such as myself, because you may or may not know that what Americans call "cursive", and it's stylistic letter forms are explicitly NOT taught in any public school here. It's ball and stick and then you're just left to join them how you want). due to their resemblance to the childlike ball and stick patterns we all start with. This is all an aside though, because our topic here is italic, and it is rude of me not to take you at your word.

I would be very interested to hear whether you, Mickey, and you, Bronze hold your italic pens Lloyd Reynolds style:

(time index 7:00 onwards)

 

Or otherwise; Say something more relaxed such as a grip that user Ken Frazer has, and I have linked previously.

Personally, I find Lloyd Reynolds grip, and even arm position, allows me to produce very good italic, as I said before. It's just damnably slow. The hand has to be lifted clear of the paper a great many times even with only a "fine" nib width.
Here's a fellah using that Reynold's position:

His italic is about twice as fast as mine is when I use that technique, but he probably has some considerable practice on me. Perhaps, when I use it, I am just not practiced enough and am equipped with a pen that is to "sharp" (see below). But even so, one could hardly call his handwriting "exam speed" and I do wonder if that hand position does not perhaps, have a hard cap on it in terms of speed given just how "planted" the hand is?
Finally: I had not heard of referring to the edge of a chisel edged pen as either "sharp" or not. I presume you refer to how rounded off it is; As in, it is still of the aspect of a chisel, but a dulled one, to facilitate movement?. I think perhaps, the 25 dollar lettering set I got to experiment with has edges that may all be thought of as "sharp". Would you advise attempting to acquire something less so>? Edited October 5, 2014 by Alexande

[Mickey]

My grip is pretty standard, not substantially different from Ken's or Lloyd's, allowing for differences in physiology. As my x-height in Spencerian is around 1.8mm, That makes a 3x + 3x letter f about 1.1cm, so I have few collision problems writing in standard notebooks. My preference is 1cm Seyes lined paper. is fine. When I said sharp, I meant sharp, i.e., how thin the edge is. It's that quality which is most important factor in "pushability." The rest is just developing a stable technique. I don't see exceedingly pointed corners as anything other than an annoyance, especially in a pen not used for formal calligraphy.