Overpriced

[Freddy]

 

 

I have a Waterman's 52 1/2V from c.1910 and it is in Near-mint. I don't think it is the material, but rather the owner(s). Like anything, treat them good and they'll last.

 

I never said MB resin was poor quality, just not superior (or different) to others.

 

Tom.

 

Tom..it is my understanding that Waterman started producing lever fillers ca. 1915..and

the first 52 1/2 v with ring top & clip was in Cardinal {red} ca. 1915-1920.

 

Fred

Edited September 20, 2014 by Freddy

[prf5]

Value comparisons are no more "subjective" than other features such as "nib quality." Value comparisons occur here, though not as frequently as I would like. See the exchange above between Cryptos and Stormin. If they can avoid the ad hominem and brand loyalty traps, there's a lot to be learned by reading what they have to say.

 

Some guy posted a review of his Romillo on another thread. Toward the end, he asked, rhetorically, whether anyone would deign to chose a Monblanc over his handmade $2000 pen that leaks, has an enbonite finish, and inconsistencies in the lathe work. Would I prefer this pen to an $800 Johannes Brahms? That's an easy call. For him, it was equally "duh," because after all, he had an Romillo. The problem here wasn't in drawing the comparison, or in this case whether the pens were affordable, but the fact a comparison was suggested but never actually discussed.

[FoszFay]

I keep thinking about this post, shown by multiple replies.

 

When a company sells to a new owner, they sell more than the shop. Included in the price is brand name, or their reputation. For certain companies, this may be a very very significant price, for example, Montblanc, Ferrari, Mercedes...

 

Is it not right for these companies to use this to their advantage and include this price in the sale of their goods? After all, they spent a lot of time and money acquiring and building-up their brand.

 

Tom.

[aawhite]

When it comes to pricing, I believe that:

 

1. If something is said to overpriced then it has to be "overpriced" compared to some other thing of equal value. Since fountain pens are as unique as they come in terms of quality, then none can be considered (compared) to be overpriced. A cloned fountain pen is not the original, not the same maker and not the same quality.

 

2. These pen companies have some form of marketing. They will try not to price it to a point that no one will ever buy it. They rely on people who can afford and think of "value for (their) money".

3. People who complain about expensive pens as being overpricing are those who like to buy it but cannot afford it. There might be those who would disagree with this; it is your right to do so, but I make no apologies.

4. I look at overpricing in a different way. I see a pen as overpriced when the same pen is more expensive in one place compared to another for no good reason. I live in Australia and I consider most modern fountain pens sold here as overpriced compared to the same pens that I can purchase on-line from overseas.

Edited September 20, 2014 by aawhite

[robert1962]

Stormin, At the price range being discussed, I would think c/c or piston would be more an issue of buyer preference than the mark of product quality or mfg cost. I think that the 149 is now a piston fill, because it has always been a piston fill. The MB image of this pen is as a long reigning and recognizable champ. Much of the retail price goes to the perpetuation of that image - that tradition.

 

As to my take on value, I lucked on to a near mint 149 at an antique mall for $75.00. Bought it because it was "worth" about $300.00 should I dump it on the Bay. I suspect that if I sell it 10 years from now, not much will have changed. Bear in mind I'm a vintage pen guy with some older MB's, so I don't have an aversion of their products, just their pricing. I suspect that my sense of patience for a deal is different from those whose wants are influenced by this months' (fill in blank) catalog.

 

I'll buy the pen, but don't wish to pay for the hype. If its good now, it will be good a few years from now - these aren't I Phones - I'm not buying the latest technology.

 

Bob

[orfew]

 

Why is brand creation and perception not part of the value? Just b/c *you* do not ascribe any value to the MB star or the Gucci stirrups or the Mercedes logo or whatever doesnt mean that other people dont. Isnt it a bit presumptuous to assume that your preferences on what is good value is the only correct one?

 

FWIW, I personally find a current-production MB 149 over-priced - but that "overpriced" is only in the context of the Montblanc 149 AND me. I would never think of dream of ascribing a universal "overpriced" tag.

 

 

When you buy a salad in a restaurant, you are paying for:

- the variable cost -- which is the amount of food in the bowl

- the fixed costs -- rent, electricity, staff salaries, etc. etc

Just b/c you use half the portion of food doesnt mean that the cost of providing that service has halved.

 

With MB, there is a certain premium for the brand, the image, the stores, etc. That may not mean anything to you, which is fine - but to imply that everyone must feel this way or be a gullible fool is what I take exception to.

 

I seem to be seeing a lot of that on FPN these days - "oh, they are fools for spending so much on a pen" - where "so much" is an arbitrary number that the particular poster seems to have a problem with.

 

And talking about FPN's favorite Nakaya - how come paying a premium for MB's brand is bad, but paying a premium for the artistic/cultural trappings of Nakaya isnt? Oh wait, they spin a great story about how the pen is made out of urushi and handcrafted by virgins on the foothills of Mt Fuji - so suddenly, paying for an inefficient manufacturing process is ok? Outsource it to China - I am sure someone there can handcraft it just as well for a lot cheaper. Heck, Platinum can make an amazing urushi Izumo for $400 and Nakaya cannot go under $550? Or for that matter, Platinum can sell the *exact* same Briarwood pen for a lot less than Nakaya? How does that work?

 

For the record, I am not slagging on Nakaya nor do I mean to get into an argument about the points above - I am merely making a point that*value* is all a matter of perspective.

 

Bottom line: if you are paying more than $2 for a pen, you are paying too much purely from a utilitarian point of view. After that, it is all about aesthetics and preferences. To argue that XX is overpriced is basically another way of saying "everyone else should have the same beliefs, budgets and priorities I do". There is a word for that: hubris.

Agreed. There also seems to be a lot of reverse snobbery in many posts in this thread. I buy MBs because I like them. They are worth it to me and that is all that matters.

[ScienceChick]

On the issue of exploitive pricing, I think it's only exploitation if there are no other options. The rent prices of surviving homes in New Orleans immediately post-Katrina comes to mind. There are many quality, lower priced pens available; I have the choice to buy one of those or one of the "overpriced" pens. To my mind it's an issue of what I can afford (or choose to afford) and, perhaps more importantly, how I value the item. I keep coming back to "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay." If X pen is $5000 and of shoddy quality but people will buy it because of its perceived ________ (fill in the blank: prestige, quality, image, etc), then to them it's worth the price of admission. A big part of how luxury brands maintain their luxury image is by charging "exclusive" prices.

 

OTOH, many people saw the post-Katrina rents as simple free-market economics. I can see both viewpoints.

[ScienceChick]

<snip> I buy MBs because I like them. They are worth it to me and that is all that matters.

 

Agreed. I'm sure we all buy things - whether it's a $2 item or a $10,000 item - that others see as a crazy purchase and that we see as completely worth it. If you're the one opening your wallet, the value you place on the item is ultimately all that matters.

[Z-Tab]

These types of threads frequently turn into opportunities to trash Montblanc. Montblanc makes great pens*. Are their retail prices very high? Yes. But they are not out of line with their European competitors. Pelikan, Visconti, Omas, etc. all price their high end offerings in the same range as Montblanc. The Japanese companies price their high end pens in the same range, too. They just have more mid-range options.

 

Montblanc's advantage over the competition is the secondary market, where you can easily pick up a 146/149 at a price that can rarely be had for any of their direct competitors.

 

What is "overpriced"? Well, I would say that paying MSRP when you can get the same thing for much less is pretty close to that. A $935 Pelikan M1000 at MSRP is overpriced compared to a $600 M1000 at street prices.

 

 

*As with any manufacturer, the Montblanc you get may need a bit of tweaking to get the best performance out of it, and Montblanc SHOULD handle that before releasing the pens into the wild, since they make such a big deal about the craftsmanship that goes into them.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Z-Tab

[de_pen_dent]

What a meaningless post. Everything out there can be overpriced. Why don't you start a post about over priced watches, knives, cars, houses etc? Sorry but I don't see the purpose of this post.

 

Seeing more and more of this here - one post or two is easy to ascribe to curiosity, but when there are so many posts all harping on the same topic, I think this is some kind of reverse snobbery and a way for people to make themselves feel better about not being able to afford certain pens.

 

I dont spend any time wondering about people who buy pens/cars/clothes/whatever that fall in a price category (higher or lower) than what I am interested in - that's kinda the point of being "not interested". I focus on what I'm interested in. The amount of time people spend justifying why they wouldnt buy Brand X certainly indicates a level of interest higher than they claim to have.

 

So the Sour Grape Syndrome is the only explanation that comes to mind as to why people would spend so much time worrying about stuff that they supposedly arent interested in.

 

Quoting AAWhite above:

 

3. People who complain about expensive pens as being overpricing are those who like to buy it but cannot afford it. There might be those who would disagree with this; it is your right to do so, but I make no apologies.

 

Bingo. I find Krone to be overpriced, but b/c of that I set it out of my mind and that's the end of it. I have no desire to own a Krone and I wont be starting any threads on FPN about "Why are Krone prices so high"

Edited September 21, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[de_pen_dent]

Incidentally, if you take the branding off an MB pen have you changed the quality of the pen? No, but you have changed the Barnum factor.

 

Anyway, that's just how I see pricing. It's just my opinion. However it is based on an appreciation of how long I have to work to earn a specified sum of disposable monies. I guess that I am a product of the working class that places value that way. I would also guess that people born into affluence have no real understanding of that concept. YMMV

 

Way too many generalities and too little an understanding of the luxury market.

 

I will suggest you do some research into HOW desirable brands becoming desirable. They dont just get up one day and say "I am a premium brand, pay extra for me". There is a lot of work that goes into it. Once you understand how that works, perhaps then you will be able to think beyond trite caricuature-like generalizations and stop with those somewhat offensive characterizations of those who think differently.

 

Those who buy MB are suckers? Really? Let's flip that around - "those who cannot afford MB are jealous bottom-feeders". That's not so nice, is it? You never hear the latter - you always hear the former.

Edited September 21, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[Cryptos]

That's a broad brush. Real broad. And I resent the implication. What I can afford and what I am prepared to pay are not necessarily related. In my case they are not.

 

I chose MB as the bad boy in this thread simply for convenience and everyone knows who they are. I don't actually have a thing about MB. Can I afford one? Certainly can! Will I buy one? No, because I think they are overpriced for what you get.

[Icywolfe]

 

Quoting AAWhite above:

 

3. People who complain about expensive pens as being overpricing are those who like to buy it but cannot afford it. There might be those who would disagree with this; it is your right to do so, but I make no apologies.

 

Bingo. I find Krone to be overpriced, but b/c of that I set it out of my mind and that's the end of it. I have no desire to own a Krone and I wont be starting any threads on FPN about "Why are Krone prices so high"

 

I do think the MB 149 is over priced and I doubt I'll ever own or buy one. The 149 is the lowest point of my goal list, but I will joke about negatively ever so often. And often will be the comical size of the pen fitted with a comical price. What would that make me? I have this pen higher on the list:

 

http://fpgeeks.com/2011/11/namiki-emperor-golden-rose-limited-edition-fountain-pen/

 

And I doubt I'll own it but it's higher up on the list.

 

-----------

 

I'm only negative about the 149. But one day I'll get a smaller sized MB. Maybe 146 and that has a reasonable price.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Icywolfe

[de_pen_dent]

That's a broad brush. Real broad. And I resent the implication. What I can afford and what I am prepared to pay are not necessarily related. In my case they are not.

 

I chose MB as the bad boy in this thread simply for convenience and everyone knows who they are. I don't actually have a thing about MB. Can I afford one? Certainly can! Will I buy one? No, because I think they are overpriced for what you get.

 

I agree that I painted with an offensive broad brush - but i was using it to show that it was the same brush you were using, just applied differently.

If you had just said the last bit, no one would have any problems. Everyone has their own idea of what is properly priced and what isnt, and there is no right/wrong here. What I take exception to is your statement (and others of a similar nature that anyone who buys a ____ [Montblanc, whatever - the brand is irrelevant] is falling for the hype or is a sucker.

 

My issue is simple: dont presume to put pejorative tags to others, "Suckers", "fools", "wanna-bes", "social climbers" - these are some of the charming epithets that people here have applied, either explicitly or by implication - on others who think differently and have a different opinion. That is equally offensive.

 

Speaking in general and not addressing you in particular: that gets tiresome after a while and, to my mind, such incessant jabs at others can only stem from some kind of personal issue - petty jealousy, insecurity and need for reaffirming one's own purchase choices (or lack thereof).

[de_pen_dent]

 

I do think the MB 149 is over priced and I doubt I'll ever own or buy one. The 149 is the lowest point of my goal list, but I will joke about negatively ever so often. And often will be the comical size of the pen fitted with a comical price. What would that make me? I have this pen higher on the list:

 

 

Yeah, but I dont think you are in here writing pages upon why MB is such a monstrosity and all MB buyers are misguided fools with more money than sense, or desperate people searching for social status, or whatever else passes as insult-du-jour.

 

Those like you, who genuinely find that the MB 149 doesnt fit their price/value heuristic, go about their lives and dont rant and rave about it on FPN regularly.

 

And while specifically on the MB 149 and overpriced:

 

I used to, and still do, think that the 149 was/is overpriced. But I wanted to have the original, classic cigar pen in my collection and got one, albeit at a huge discount over list. And I like the pen enough that I just got the 90th Anniv model as well. So is the pen still overpriced if I liked it enough to buy 2? Or is merely me wishing that it would be cheaper?

Edited September 21, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[FarmBoy]

I agree buying a Red-Band 51 is not a good value. Certain examples can hit 4 figures and they don't write. Overpriced for sure and only a nut would buy one.

 

Acorn

[Cryptos]

 

Speaking in general and not addressing you in particular: that gets tiresome after a while and, to my mind, such incessant jabs at others can only stem from some kind of personal issue - petty jealousy, insecurity and need for reaffirming one's own purchase choices (or lack thereof).

 

Fair point, and I will of course apologise for suggesting that there is a sucker element to buying into brands. Each to their own. In my case I can very well see a future in which I get a Nakaya (not a certainty, a possibility), but in none of my futures will I ever get a 149 (unless someone gifts one to me, which is hugely unlikely). So for me it's not about the overall cost per se. In my evaluation when I look at the Nakaya I see something that has had some effort put into it at the craftsman level. I don't see that with MB in general - although I do occasionally look around for a 225 as I think that is a reasonably priced every day writer. It is a personal thing, and I was wrong to allow emotion to get in the way of rational debate.

 

I'm done.

[de_pen_dent]

 

in none of my futures will I ever get a 149 (unless someone gifts one to me, which is hugely unlikely). So for me it's not about the overall cost per se. In my evaluation when I look at the Nakaya I see something that has had some effort put into it at the craftsman level. I don't see that with MB in general - although I do occasionally look around for a 225 as I think that is a reasonably priced every day writer. It is a personal thing, and I was wrong to allow emotion to get in the way of rational debate.

 

Moving on to more pen-related topics - I kinda felt the same way about MB initially. Having got a 149 (initially, mainly to complete my collection of iconic pens, I have to say, it really grew on me - it is a mighty fine pen. esp at the $400 price point it goes for in the used market. If you like bigger pens, it is quite nicely balanced and their nibs are an absolute pleasure to write with (although to be fair, that is by no means exclusive to the MB).

[prf5]

At the risk of being as thin-skinned as some of the people who have posted here, P.T. Barnum did not say, "there is a sucker born every minute." The origin is unclear. Some people attribute it to a critic of Barnum. Others attribute it to Mark Twain. There's no evidence that it originated with Barnum.

 

As I have read this discussion, the issues raised here don't apply to a specific brand. They are much broader: ultimately, it's a matter of how value is judged and how the judgments affect buying decisions. Some people believe it's impossible to judge value because it's so subjective. Others resent the idea that someone else can evaluate their choices. In a previous post, I described a guy who bought a pen based solely on the brand name and the look of the nib. He ridiculed Montblanc as a mass-produced pen. I don't make decisions that way, or at least I hope I don't.

 

People have different buying strategies. People who have strong brand loyalty might choose the item first and then look for the lowest possible price. Those who have strong loyalty to a vendor wouldn't do this. Others evaluate the item, the cost, and the vendor against what they are going for. For them, and I am one of them, saying that something is "overpriced" is a deal-beaker. It excludes the item from consideration. There is an unnamed vendor who sells used pens mostly for under $200.00. In my judgment, these pens are overpriced. It's not just a matter of how much you can afford. The same person who spends millions on a condo also spends dollars on a pair of socks.

Edited September 21, 2014 by prf5

[orfew]

That's a broad brush. Real broad. And I resent the implication. What I can afford and what I am prepared to pay are not necessarily related. In my case they are not.

 

I chose MB as the bad boy in this thread simply for convenience and everyone knows who they are. I don't actually have a thing about MB. Can I afford one? Certainly can! Will I buy one? No, because I think they are overpriced for what you get.

You chose MB because they are an easy target. You do not like MB, that is fine. Just do not expect everyone to agree with you.