Overpriced

[Lyander0012]

Guys. Please. I've already seen a couple of threads get locked down within the past couple of weeks because some people apparently have trouble keeping things civil. It quite honestly sucks for those of us just trying to have casual chats about fountain pens and the like. I mean, as masterful as the displays of passive-aggressive posting have been, it's already toeing the line into outright rudeness.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again: threads about price and the like are like trainwrecks: you know it's gonna happen eventually, and yet you can't stop watching or act preemptively to fix things. Jeez, I'm supposedly a member of the rude generation, and yet... I'll not finish that thought. Sorry.

 

Overpriced: paying a premium for import taxes. Sheaffer Taranis models in gold trim cost ELEVEN thousand PH pesos here (almost 250 USD), while the SRP is $165. Gold is taxed heavily here, so while the gold trim Taranis does look nice, I am NOT buying one locally.

[ethernautrix]

Perhaps you could suggest the same to the culture bashing, shallow youth man who owns the English language as well.

That culture bashing, shallow youth man [sic.] already suggested it to you. Have you noticed your own insulting comments?

 

Spectacles can be entertaining, so it's fine with me if you want to continue your tirade in public, but maybe you aren't aware of how you're coming across.

[mrchan]

I too think of things in term of expensive (ie; I'm not willing to pay the asking price or its more than what I can afford) rather than overpriced. I however like the term quoted by one of the other members earlier where if after buying the aforementioned product, even if it costs 10$, its overpriced if it doesn't live up to expectations.

[Cryptos]

ehternautrix: With something like art though, where there may a limit of just one piece, would a perfect reproduction suffice, or does being by the artist's hand signify into your loving to have it? I mean obviously you are never going to have Starry Night as it hangs in NY MoMA... unless you are going to take up somewhat daring art theft!

 

I agree with your part about expensive. To me something is expensive if it is more than I want to spend. Even though, on occasion, I have to spend it because it is a necessity. Had to buy two new tyres a couple of weeks ago. All of a sudden $300 seems expensive!

[Cryptos]

 

I however like the term quoted by one of the other members earlier where if after buying the aforementioned product, even if it costs 10$, its overpriced if it doesn't live up to expectations.

 

Which ties in with my point #3 from post #333 (spooky numbers).

 

EDIT: and this was post #345!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Cryptos

[ethernautrix]

I too think of things in term of expensive (ie; I'm not willing to pay the asking price or its more than what I can afford) rather than overpriced. I however like the term quoted by one of the other members earlier where if after buying the aforementioned product, even if it costs 10$, its overpriced if it doesn't live up to expectations.

I agree. If the item is $10, then it's a cheap POS. The degree of disappointment is exponential to the cost of the item.

[ethernautrix]

ehternautrix: With something like art though, where there may a limit of just one piece, would a perfect reproduction suffice, or does being by the artist's hand signify into your loving to have it? I mean obviously you are never going to have Starry Night as it hangs in NY MoMA... unless you are going to take up somewhat daring art theft!

I have thought about this question. The exact duplicate doesn't include the inspiration and creativity of the original. That's worth something to me.

 

The first time I saw "The Starry Night" - after years of seeing reproductions (not exact duplicates - haven't seen any of those) - I was rooted to the spot, taking it all in. I both wanted to own it and wanted everyone to see it. I figured that MOMA was taking care of the latter (to the extent that the painting is available for viewing to those in New York). "The Starry Night" opened a deeper appreciation of van Gogh's other works, too, and paintings in general.

 

Seeing original Klimts (at Neue Galerie) had the same effect. I was lukewarm about Klimt's work until I saw them in person.

 

I agree with your part about expensive. To me something is expensive if it is more than I want to spend. Even though, on occasion, I have to spend it because it is a necessity. Had to buy two new tyres a couple of weeks ago. All of a sudden $300 seems expensive!

That's not even one Nakaya! (Smiley.)

[plumista]

Fountain pens are usually considered a "luxury" item (well, more or less...), compared to any school ballpoint or pencil, for instance.

 

And evidently a luxury item is by its own nature an overpriced item.

 

Otherwise, what is the point of luxury, if not to show one´s status to others, using and displaying superfluous things?

 

If you WANT something you do not actually NEED (let´s say, a quality fountain pen), chances are its cost will be surely overpriced.

 

plumista

[Cryptos]

ethernautrix, I know! I just didn't want to have to spend the money on something as mundane as tyres.

 

Reproductions: when there are artists out there who can recreate a masterpiece so faithfully that even the experts can see the fakery it makes me wonder how my perception of the original arises as it does. I get the idea of the thrill of owning the original - at least I can imagine what it may be like. So maybe I should ask it this way: would a reproduction be better than never seeing the picture ever again in any form? I cannot think of any answer to that, given my severely stunted intellect.

 

Obviously you wouldn't pay the same price for a reproduction. And people do have coffee-table books of art so they can get some of the thrill that they experience at the gallery. Incidentally, I felt the same way when I saw the original version of the The Raft of the Medusa by Gericault. Mind you, I was invested in the history of the incident at the time. Even so... powerful feelings.

 

I'm struggling with a slightly alternative pricing concept at the moment. I have some pens that I don't think I will use - and I am not a collector really - and would like to sell them. If they sell then I have some other pens that I can give away for free. I can only justify the second action if the first part gets satisfied. Yet I digress.

 

Actually, I was thinking about Nakaya quite a lot. Looking through my pens I thought if I could divest myself of most then I could afford one Nakaya. Mainly because I am beginning to think I may be one of those people who really only needs say 4 or 5 pens to do everything I want to do. So why not have good ones?

 

So I started looking. Pelikan 140. Approximately $120-150 from Mr Propas, or take a wild guess on eBay. Which if any of these is overpriced? On the one hand I have peace of mind and higher prices, on the other the chance of a bargain and the risk of a lemon. How can I sensibly evaluate these two facets?

 

Just musing on the nature of expense and what overpricing may mean to me.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Cryptos

[georges zaslavsky]

So... who thinks Krone pens are overpriced? Or Caran d'Ache?

Krone pens are just rebadged Marlen pens. Caran d'Ache is just a good brand but aside that nothing exceptional

[de_pen_dent]

Defining overpriced:

 

If you are buying on the basis of objective performance - then you can set up some parameter which quantifies $/performance. Like all curves, this is going to become very steep further towards the absolute end (diminishing returns).

 

Since we can all agree that once we get over $1/$10/25 (or whatever), we arent buying pens purely for performance, but for aesthetic appeal. And trying to establish some kind of general standard on how to value aesthetic is absurd. Some people like silver overlay, some like handpainted stuff, some like classic shapes. I am hoping we are the past the "I dont like Brand XYZ, therefore everyone who buys is it ABC" type of muppetry of the earlier pages.

 

So given that aesthetics is a personal choice, the term "overpriced" only holds value for a given person, and is not a universal representation.

 

Given all of that, a pen can be one of 3 things:

1/ One you like and are willing to buy if you have the money (your not having the money doesnt make the pen overpriced)

2/ One you dont like and dont want to own

3/ One that you like and are willing to buy but only at a lower price

 

For #3, lets make a distinction between "willing to buy only at a lower price" and "wishing it had a lower price". Eg: I wish Apple would sell their iPhone for a lot less - and I am reasonably certain they could, if they were so inclined. However, I bought an iPhone 5S last year at full price and will likely get a 6+ this year for my work phone. So atleast, it isnt overpriced here - b/c I DID end up buying it.

 

(And please - spare the polemic about Apple vs Android or whatever. That is irrelevant here. I am using Apple to make a point - this discussion isnt about Apple products)

 

A product is overpriced if you value what it has to offer, but are only willing to pay a lower price for it than what the product sells for.

 

To me, that is a consistent definition.

[Just I]

So, pens are neat.

[Polanova]

 

A product is overpriced if you value what it has to offer, but are only willing to pay a lower price for it than what the product sells for.

 

To me, that is a consistent definition.

 

There are also pens with quality & performance flaws which are sold for far more than they are worth.

 

Example 1: Omas 360 (the older model in black with silver trim - I`ve considered buying one but decided against it)

Fantastic Design, but based on what I`ve read, as many QC issues like the average China pen (especially unexcusable for an expensive pen: rings start oxidizing after a few months of use, which is ridiculous!)

 

Example 2: Marlen Aleph:This acryl pen is advertised as having a flexible nib, but performs at least as badly as a Noodler`s pen out of the box - again, ridiculous, since the cost of this pen is 4 - 5 times more than that of a Noodler`s acryl pen)***

 

Wouldn`t that be examples of objectively overprized pens?

 

***based on the most schizophrenic review I`ve seen yet by Stephen Brown (while he endorses the pen, we can see how badly it performes)

[WaskiSquirrel]

 

I agree with your part about expensive. To me something is expensive if it is more than I want to spend. Even though, on occasion, I have to spend it because it is a necessity. Had to buy two new tyres a couple of weeks ago. All of a sudden $300 seems expensive!

 

I hear that! A few weeks ago I got an unexpected windfall. I mentioned on this board that I spent part of it on a Lamy 2000. The next day I was driving home from church and got a flat. While spending intimate time with tires while I changed them, I realized I need new ones. So, when I posted here that I bought a "pen and a household item", the tires were the household item. Had I gotten the flat earlier, I wouldn't have bought the pen. Luckily, I have restraint and don't immediately spend sudden windfalls.

 

As for the expensive and overpriced...

 

I've always thought of "expensive" as more than I want to pay. Overpriced to me has always meant, "More than the market will pay."

 

But, there are a lot of factors that enter into it. I live on the edge of North Dakota's oil boom, so I've seen how housing prices and rentals have exploded. Overpriced? These places are filled, so apparently the market will bear it. It makes it tough for new teachers (I'm lucky enough to have purchased a house before it all took off) and other such professions. Or are these places just expensive? I would quote some prices, but I'm not sure most of you would believe them.

 

And the other piece that enters into it is value for money, and this is emotional. I look at my new Lamy and say, "I love this thing." Someone else looks at the Bic he found laying on the floor and says, "But this does the same thing. You got ripped off." It is in this area that the debate can become contentious. Some pens might seem expensive to us, but worth the cost. Other pens might seem like they don't give good value for money. We call them overpriced. But someone else disagrees because they think they're getting value for money.

 

And it doesn't matter what gives the consumer that perception of value: brand, material, artistry, filling mechanism, appearance, scarcity, or any number of other factors. And sometimes brands are priced higher to make them feel more exclusive.

 

I have more of a live and let live feeling on this. I know what I like and value. I know what I can pay for. I also know that what I'm willing to pay for is a lot less than what I can pay for. Someone else is in a different situation.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Waski_the_Squirrel

[de_pen_dent]

There are also pens with quality & performance flaws which are sold for far more than they are worth.

 

Good point - there is a QC issue as well. That is a bit more of an objective/measurable issue and so relatively easier to define (well, in theory anyway!).

[georges zaslavsky]

 

Good point - there is a QC issue as well. That is a bit more of an objective/measurable issue and so relatively easier to define (well, in theory anyway!).

With some brands quality control is always an issue

[Cryptos]

 

A product is overpriced if you value what it has to offer, but are only willing to pay a lower price for it than what the product sells for.

 

 

I think is a neat reworking and expansion of my point 3. "Do I think the pen is representative of the price?", so of course I agree!

[de_pen_dent]

 

I think is a neat reworking and expansion of my point 3. "Do I think the pen is representative of the price?", so of course I agree!

 

Wha...? So what the hell do we argue about now??

 

Jokes apart, I think had people just stuck to stating their preferences (as opposed to questioning the intelligence/size-of-janglies of those who feel differently), this thread would not have gone past 2 pages.

[kenshiro]

Just go back to microeconomics.

 

A product has a certain utility to each consumer, defined by that consumer's utility function. Money also has utility insofar as you can exchange it for things that have utility. As such it serves as a useful proxy for quantifying utility.

 

Expensive pens are those with a high absolute price where the utility/price ratio >= 1, regardless of whether the consumer can afford it. This can be (but is not necessarily) independent of other more urgent things in life with higher marginal utility (e.g. food); grail pens are known to be like this; i.e. 'I want it even though I'll have to eat nothing but instant ramen for six months.'

 

Overpriced pens are those with a high absolute price where the utility/price ratio < 1, again regardless of whether the consumer can afford it. This is always going to be subject to the individual consumer's utility function - what they value in a pen or an object in general, whether they value design, function, materials, engineering, etc.

[Uncial]

Visconti is a good example of a pen where I think they have got the price range right for a good product, but its their QC that lets them down (not that I have had extensive experience of this, but I know of many who have) and perhaps their SE's. MB are nice, classy looking pens, for some a little plain, perhaps just over the edge of top price. If they were 500 euro instead of 700, they would still be a premium high-end product, just not pushing their luck. Likewise Pelikan; and I love them, but they are very quickly becoming overpriced in my opinion. There are a number of others that are overpriced that have been mentioned, such as Caran d'Ache, but I think Pilot's pricing is very good and fair.

 

However, all that said, I was recently mulling over spending a lot of money (at least, a lot of money for me) on a pen and I was chatting about it with someone who isn't terribly interested in pens. But sometimes it's the person who looks at it from the outside that has the greatest wisdom to give. They had just spent over 800 euro on an ipad that even they admitted will likely be completely defunct in 3-5 years. They pointed out that the pen was something I would enjoy, and enjoy for much longer - possibly for life. Now I know it isn't exactly comparing like with like, but still, I think they had a point. Well, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it......when I buy that pen!