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Kuscer

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yes because we all know how effective the internet is at communicating tone.

 

we also know that emotes are signals for high levels of thoughtfulness.

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Try to be consistent please. You said you desired the watch. Now you are saying you don't desire it. Make up your mind.

 

And I'll say it again. Your understanding of the word 'desire' differs from mine. I already know what you mean, but you have made no attempt to try to understand what I mean.

 

Wanting and needing is a different thing altogether. While I would like to have it, I am not going to go out of my way to get it. Just try to understand that people can be happy in life while also wanting something else for the enjoyment of it. My life is complete with or without it. Is that so hard to understand?

 

Isn't that the reason you're here? You are enjoying fountain pens. The fact that you are going to buy more fountain pens in the future (because lets not kid ourselves, you probably are going to) does it mean that you aren't content? What happened to the happy state that you said you are in?

 

Conclusion: You can have a happy, and completely fulfilling life and yet desire to own something.

Edited by mrchan

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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Isnt it pretty much a truism that every generation of adults finds the "kids today" to be shallow?

 

It isnt that kids today are shallow, my contrarian, antipodean friend - it is just that you consider their hobbies and interests to be shallow. There is a significant difference between the two.

 

Eg: While I do think people spend too much time on their phones these days, I dont really see how that is any worse - they are still interacting with their friends, albeit using a different medium. Yet too many people seem to think that this is somehow an egregious failing in society that needs to be addressed.

True bliss: knowing that the guy next to you is suffering more than you are.

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Wanting and needing is a different thing altogether.

 

You used the word 'desire' in relation to the Patek (you need me to go and get the quote?). I have to respond based on what is written. And that is what you wrote. If you are moderating the swing of your argument that's okay too, but at least acknowledge that you are doing so.

 

Wanting (as in desire, not as in lack - they are different definitions) and needing are two different things. No argument there. Unfortunately for a lot of people, desire often ends up being perceived as need. And that's where the spiral into unhappiness can really take root. That's not pointed at you, just a general point really.

 

 

Isn't that the reason you're here? You are enjoying fountain pens. The fact that you are going to buy more fountain pens in the future (because lets not kid ourselves, you probably are going to) does it mean that you aren't content?

 

That's just it though. I'll probably look for new pens precisely because I am not fully content with the ones I have, at least in the sense that they are not performing the function I am looking for yet. So, yes, I am not content. I never said I was perfectly content.

 

This:

 

 

What happened to the happy state that you said you are in?

 

... is just a misinterpretation of a figure of speech I was using. Fair enough, you took it literally. Some meaning or intent is inevitably lost on the internet. No harm, no foul and all that. Let me reassure you I am far from perfectly happy. Working on it though! :D

 

EDIT: all above in response to mrchan.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/images/smilies/group.gif

Edited by Cryptos
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de_pen_dent, probably true, I still think they have more unhealthy - as in mindless or non-interactive (meaningfully) - distractions compared to in my day, and definitely compared my grandparents youth.

 

 

Eg: While I do think people spend too much time on their phones these days, I dont really see how that is any worse - they are still interacting with their friends, albeit using a different medium. Yet too many people seem to think that this is somehow an egregious failing in society that needs to be addressed.

 

I see that it is worse. The type of communication they are favouring is far more superficial than a face to face meeting. Skills are lost. You could argue that in the Brave New World such personal comm skills won't be needed, and you may well be prophetic, but I will still think that it represents a lessening of the human species overall.

 

Some days I walk down the street and refuse to step aside of them when their head is buried in a Pad or phone. They stop. Most of the time they scowl and mutter and walk around. Occasionally, actually quite rarely, someone will ask why I didn't give way. I normally say in these instances "Life is out here, not in there". Makes no difference, though it does help me feel like I am doing my tiny bit to hold back the tide wilful ignorance.

 

 

Disclaimer: I am sure I was just as callow in my youth.

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Isnt it pretty much a truism that every generation of adults finds the "kids today" to be shallow?

 

It isnt that kids today are shallow, my contrarian, antipodean friend - it is just that you consider their hobbies and interests to be shallow. There is a significant difference between the two.

 

Eg: While I do think people spend too much time on their phones these days, I dont really see how that is any worse - they are still interacting with their friends, albeit using a different medium. Yet too many people seem to think that this is somehow an egregious failing in society that needs to be addressed.

I do concur wholeheartedly my dear man

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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I don't 'desire' to be happy. I simply 'am' happy. Happiness is not an object of desire. It is a state of being. If you chase happiness you will not find it.

 

Your understanding of desire springs entirely from materialism. Mine does not.

 

Something tells me that you aren't as happy as you say you are so.

 

Btw I do desire the PP. I've already said it, but I've also said that I am perfectly content even if I don't own it for the rest of my life (which I probably won't). You still don't understand? Re-read again and again until you do, because its a simple concept..

Edited by mrchan

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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That's just it though. I'll probably look for new pens precisely because I am not fully content with the ones I have, at least in the sense that they are not performing the function I am looking for yet. So, yes, I am not content. I never said I was perfectly content.

 

 

Who is being inconsistent now?

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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The concept of 'overpriced' or 'fair' priced is overrated and highly subjective, so it's not like everyone will ever be able to come to some form of agreement - unless that is an agreement to disagree.

 

Let me give you a simple example of why I feel that it is overrated. I would never personally purchase a brand new iPad - I wouldn't be able to justify the cost to myself. However, I did buy a brand new iPad 4 the month after it came out - as a gift to my mum. Overpriced if I purchased it for myself, but I don't regret or feel like it was overpriced when purchasing it for her. Why? Because if I had bought it for myself, all I would have gotten was an iPad. Nice, shiny, and so on...but that's about it. On the other hand, when I gave it to my mum, she received not only an iPad, but also the effort and thought that I put into thinking about what she wanted, as well as the joy of receiving a gift.

 

Sometimes, items can have value other than monetary, whether this be sentimental value, the value of owning a luxury item, celebrating something in life by purchasing something you've wanted for a while, or something else, these all add to the pure number value we see. One person's overpriced may not necessarily be another's, and even though there is a general perception of luxury items being 'overpriced', that may not always be the case.

 

I think that sometimes people like to focus on how cheap or expensive something is, but forget the most important thing - all we're ever seeing is the dollar signs. How does that make anyone different? The focus is on the exact same thing - money. Overpriced = too much money. Fair priced = just the right amount of money - all subjective concepts, and all about money. No matter how you try to argue it, it seems a little hypocritical for both sides to say the other side is wrong, when essentially everyone is just talking money, doesn't it?

 

Back to the original topic, overpriced, in my opinion is where the RRP or street value is x amount, but someone tries to sell it for 2x, 3x or 4x. I find most pens sold in Australia to be overpriced in the global sense, but given the fact that there's such a small market here, it does make me wonder just HOW much extra we are actually paying after factoring in import costs and everything else.

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de_pen_dent, probably true, I still think they have more unhealthy - as in mindless or non-interactive (meaningfully) - distractions compared to in my day, and definitely compared my grandparents youth.

 

I see that it is worse. The type of communication they are favouring is far more superficial than a face to face meeting. Skills are lost. You could argue that in the Brave New World such personal comm skills won't be needed, and you may well be prophetic, but I will still think that it represents a lessening of the human species overall.

 

That's the rub, isnt it? Each of us thinks that our beliefs are the best - of course we would: that's why we believe in them. Be it music, how to interact with peers, music, what is a good price/value tradeoff for a pen (back on track!!), our beliefs are the best for us. As we get older and those preferences withstand the test of time, they evolve from "beliefs" into "truisms".

 

The fact is that much as we on FPN here bemoan the decline of cursive, it has declined for a reason - it hardly gets used anymore. So there is no meaningful, tangible loss per se - the loss is an aesthetic or emotional one: ie, it matters only to those who think that this was a skill worth retaining on its own merit and it has some aesthetic/artistic/emotion value.

 

The fallacy that you and I (I am just as guilty of it, although I try to be aware of this) fall into is assuming that our subjective values hold true for everyone (or should hold true for everyone): be it our idea of what constitutes "proper" interaction (there is nothing sacrosanct about face-to-face meetings versus phone vs online communication - we are just conditioned to think one is superior), or be it what constitutes good value for a pen.

 

Beliefs/subjective opinions are NOT the same as universal truisms.

 

(And for the record, I should make it clear that in general, I am vehemently opposed to moral relativism, where all opinions are valid regardless of how asinine they may be. Some opinions and belief systems are dumb and do not deserve to be treated on the same level as others - but generally, these are values which are either harmful to others or which fly in the face of facts/logic. For other stuff, far be it for me to judge if someone gets off on listening to Justin Bieber while having a Lamy Safari filled with Noodler BSB in their pocket).

 

That's kind of what has sparked this whole thread - some people find MB overpriced for their own beliefs (which is perfectly fine), log on to FPN to express their shocked incredulity that people would pay so much money for a pen (also fine) and then deciding that anyone who does is a _____ <insert pejorative of choice> (umm, not fine).

 

I think we have agreed that not everyone who buys a MB is an under-endowed, insecure, noveau-riche corporate drone fanboy trying to impress others.

 

Let's give the same benefit of doubt to the social media trends.

True bliss: knowing that the guy next to you is suffering more than you are.

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:wallbash: It was higher end than the no-name watches in the market.

 

George, I worked hard to afford my first Seiko. It was considered a good brand but not a luxury or designer brand. On my 18th birthday my Dad gave me a Tissot watch. This was a luxury watch and I was expected to treat it as a dress watch and not an everyday item. Sadly, being the kind of youth who will take no advice the watch succumbed to excessive abuse and harsh environments. Still feel guilty about that, and have never bought anything above a Seiko since.

 

 

 

ethernautrix, that's pretty much mirrors my experience and perception. The terms 'designer' and 'branded' were not necessarily synonymous. And for me, 'designer' generally meant overpriced (tying in with the original intended direction of the thread) as the perceived difference between, say, a 'branded' pair of jeans and a 'designer' pair of jeans largely devolved to the label alone, i.e. no substantial difference in quality or function.

 

A watch keeps time. Is ever increasing accuracy really worth chasing in a personal timepiece? I think not, but I haven't worn a watch in more than two years now and hardly notice the difference between the two states.

If you are really into watchmaking you should know that the US Watchbrands that have made the reputation of the US in the watch world were Bulova, Wittnauer, Waltham, Hamilton, Illinois, Elgin, Jenny (those from the 20's to the early 70's) and actually RGM. Also the finish movement on timex watches was very poor and crude, their accuracy wasn't that stellar. I would rather purchase a fine timepiece of the glory years from well known American brands with the highest grade movement available than buy an entry level watch with a low jewel count movement. I wear a 1967 Longines Ultrachron Watch with an inhouse calibre 631 which is far better than the newer Longines which are mostly ETA based and uninteresting. I like quality and like my old friend Chuck Maddox (rip) who was a very well known chronograph collector said: "old tech that works is good tech." I appreciate quality rather than something fashionable and of poor quality.

Pens are like watches , once you start a collection, you can hardly go back. And pens like all fine luxury items do improve with time

 

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Never mind George. You didn't get it when it was relevant, your not getting it now.

 

 

Each of us thinks that our beliefs are the best - of course we would: that's why we believe in them.

 

I would agree in principle, except that in the case given the decline in face to face personal communication skills is not a belief. It is an observable and researched phenomenon. Whether it is ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for our species as a whole is something that maybe only history can tells us. That I think it is bad constitutes a belief, I'll grant you that, but the decline in skills is very real.

 

 

mrchan, slow down and read please.

 

 

I don't 'desire' to be happy. I simply 'am' happy. Happiness is not an object of desire. It is a state of being. If you chase happiness you will not find it.

 

Your understanding of desire springs entirely from materialism. Mine does not.

 

Something tells me that you aren't as happy as you say you are so.

 

You don't have to take everything you read so literally, especially when it is obvious someone is simply making a point. Here I was making the distinction between 'desire' - an emotion, and 'being' a state. Not that hard to grasp I would have thought.

 

 

That's just it though. I'll probably look for new pens precisely because I am not fully content with the ones I have, at least in the sense that they are not performing the function I am looking for yet. So, yes, I am not content. I never said I was perfectly content.

Who is being inconsistent now?

 

And here I was not being inconsistent because the previous quote you used of mine was not a statement of my actual condition. It was just making a point of difference (see previous comment)

 

 

You were inconsistent because you started off using the term 'desire' while not really understanding that it is a deeply motivating concept. Then, when I called you on it you back track and say you don't care if you get the Patek. Can't have it both ways. Kind of elementary.

f

This side of this discussion is kind of a dead end really. I have some idea why there is this discord (apart from my own crankiness) but that is probably best left off an open forum.

Edited by Cryptos
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Never mind George. You didn't get it when it was relevant, your not getting it now.

 

 

I would agree in principle, except that in the case given the decline in face to face personal communication skills is not a belief. It is an observable and researched phenomenon. Whether it is ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for our species as a whole is something that maybe only history can tells us. That I think it is bad constitutes a belief, I'll grant you that, but the decline in skills is very real.

 

 

mrchan, slow down and read please.

 

 

You don't have to take everything you read so literally, especially when it is obvious someone is simply making a point. Here I was making the distinction between 'desire' - an emotion, and 'being' a state. Not that hard to grasp I would have thought.

 

 

And here I was not being inconsistent because the previous quote you used of mine was not a statement of my actual condition. It was just making a point of difference (see previous comment)

 

 

You were inconsistent because you started off using the term 'desire' while not really understanding that it is a deeply motivating concept. Then, when I called you on it you back track and say you don't care if you get the Patek. Can't have it both ways. Kind of elementary.

f

This side of this discussion is kind of a dead end really. I have some idea why there is this discord (apart from my own crankiness) but that is probably best left off an open forum.

When you are being inconsistent you dismiss it as making a point but try to call me out for being inconsistent. One minute newer music isn't as good, next minute you own CDs of new age music as well. You then dismiss it as a joke. Then you say you are in your happy state and the next you aren't and was just trying to make a point. Wow, please stop calling out other's inconsistencies if you are going back and forth all over the place yourself.

 

For me while I desire to own it, it wouldn't bother me if I didn't. Desire doesn't lead to discontent. While you may subscribe to that line of thought, I do not. Just because I would quite like to own something, I don't feel unhappy that I do not and I can live happily not ever owning it. There are different DEGREES of desire just like there are different degrees of essentially everything in the world. If both people have the IQ of 170 and 210, you still call them both geniuses. They are that but to a different degree. I hope I don't have to repeat other examples because this is quite clear. Likewise I do desire to own a PP, but I don't have to and I can be happy not owning it. Understand?

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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Whatever, dude.

 

I don't see why I should have defend your inability to follow a discussion properly. The markers are in all my posts indicating what is humour and what isn't, and what are clearly points of argument and what isn't. The joke about the music of our own time being better than the new stuff, for example, is actually a well known meme. Any native English speaker would more than likely realise this. I made a lot of allowances for the obvious fact that your culture/language and mine are not the same.

 

If we were conversing in putonghua or behasa melayu and I made a series of comments that implied that you didn't know how to use your own language properly I expect you would be quite offended. Yet you seem perfectly happy with taking that attitude toward me.

 

 

 

Understand?

 

Of course I understand the words you used. It is my native language after all. However, you are inconsistent in your usage and have clearly misunderstood the proper meaning of many of those words as being the same as each other when they are not.

 

说话是银,沉默是金

Edited by Cryptos
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If that were true, it would simplify what is meant by "overpricing." The examples I gave were Pelikan and Parker. If these are not "branded" in Singapore, and therefore not luxury products, then a Souveran that costs $800.00 in the U.S., and probably a comparable amount in Singapore, is not a luxury product. By definition, an $800.00 fountain pen that is not branded is overpriced. The problem is, it's not that simple.

 

As I have said above, I think that overpricing refers to the value of the product. People determine whether an item is overpriced by comparing the cost to what they believe it is worth. Sometimes, people are willing to overpay, but value is a factor in making a buying decision. The product's name is only one factor in making a value determination. As others have noted, overpricing does not apply only to so-called branded items or to expensive unbranded ones. Even low cost pens can be overpriced. Consequently, the talk about branding has been a distraction.

 

He has told you how it is in Singapore. It seems absurd to argue that it is not that way, when it is, no matter how much you find it "unreasonable".

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Materialism has nothing to do with happiness, wanting and acquiring a Patek philippe would let me enjoy it, but objects are just objects and I wouldn't say that any object I own makes me happy per se.

 

You are confusing your own case with that of others who you may not speak for. Don't assume that because it isn't so for you, it necessarily follows that it isn't so for others.

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Materialism has nothing to do with happiness, wanting and acquiring a Patek philippe would let me enjoy it, but objects are just objects and I wouldn't say that any object I own makes me happy per se.

 

Would let me enjoy, but wouldn't make me happy?

 

Well, good luck with that.

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Whatever, dude.

 

I don't see why I should have defend your inability to follow a discussion properly. The markers are in all my posts indicating what is humour and what isn't, and what are clearly points of argument and what isn't. The joke about the music of our own time being better than the new stuff, for example, is actually a well known meme. Any native English speaker would more than likely realise this. I made a lot of allowances for the obvious fact that your culture/language and mine are not the same.

 

If we were conversing in putonghua or behasa melayu and I made a series of comments that implied that you didn't know how to use your own language properly I expect you would be quite offended. Yet you seem perfectly happy with taking that attitude toward me.

 

 

 

Of course I understand the words you used. It is my native language after all. However, you are inconsistent in your usage and have clearly misunderstood the proper meaning of many of those words as being the same as each other when they are not.

 

说话是银,沉默是金

I don't see why you are trying to poke fun at my mastery of the language. I have spoken english from birth, I scored a 9/9 on the english IELTS test, a score which many native english speakers from english speaking countries have difficulty obtaining (because lets face it, despite learning only one language, many native speakers from english speaking countries can't spell or use grammar to save their lives). I am educated at up to the highest level in university in a purely english speaking country, so don't try to discredit my mastery of the language, my opinions are from the point of view of a native english language speaker.

 

You, on the other hand, have difficulty grasping that other english speaking cultures may perceive things differently from yours and you also have significant difficulty understanding that certain words have varying degrees of definition (hence the words very, a little, quite, etc..).

 

"This man is stupid". "This man is quite stupid". "This man is very stupid". "Small", "Smaller", "Smallest". Are you getting the point yet or has reaching 50 caused a lack of flexibility in your thinking?

Edited by mrchan

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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Would let me enjoy, but wouldn't make me happy?

 

Well, good luck with that.

Yes, in other words, I enjoy having certain things, but that DEGREE of enjoyment is simply trivial. What truly makes me happy is my wife and family.

 

Keep in mind that enjoyment is not synonymous with being happy. It does allude to but does NOT mean happiness. Think about that.

Fountain pens are like weapons. They just make your pocket bleed so much.

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