Pelikan Type And Skipping?

[Ana_]

I'm attaching pix of my Pelikan M400 for help in specific identification. I'm under the impression it's from the 80's. It is an estate sale purchase. I would also like to know the type based on the barrel color and styling.

 

I'm also attaching a photo of my writing with it. It keeps skipping and that is annoying me. I have underlined in the writing sample all of the places it has skipped for visual reference. I'm trying to figure out if it's me, the way I hold the pen or the pen flow itself and if it requires adjustment. I've already flushed water through with a drop of dish soap for flow optimization. Any/all suggestions are appreciated.

[sargetalon]

The pen is not an M400 I'm afraid. It is a pre-1997 blue marbled M200 with gold plated stainless steel nib. This was a model introduced in 1985. Same piston filling system and size as the M400 but different trim and lacking at 14C nib. The most common cause for the skipping you describe are misaligned tines. You should check for proper alignment with a 10x loupe. That can help you diagnose a lot of nib issues. While not an M400, it's still a very nice pen.

[Ana_]

Thank you for that. When I purchased it, it was sold to me as an M400, so very disappointing. I do like it & did not pay an M400 price so that keeps the frustration in check. Any recommendations for a place here that pictorially tells one what the characteristics of an M400 are?

[sargetalon]

See section #3 here discussing M400 trim style: http://thepelikansperch.com/database/dating-a-pelikan/#point3. You should check out this site as well: http://www.ruettinger-web.de/e-pelikan-modell-souveraen.html

 

It's very common for Pelikans to be misidentified at the point of sale. Leads to a lot of buyer confusion. All M400's will have a crown cap top. The pre-97 models will be etched and then painted after that. Trim rings are generally absent on the old-style models as well and in abundance on the newer trim. All Souveräns though will have at least a 14C nib. Those are the hallmarks to look for.

[Ana_]

Ok, those are solid references as to the type of pen, thank you for those. I sure do have a 200. Why does one of the sites refer to it as an R200 and the other as an M200? I think what I will do is have the tines straightened by a professional and also buy an m400 medium (this pen is extra fine) 14 ct. gold nib. I think I read that the 400 and 200 have interchangeable nibs, is that right?

[ac12]

Yup 400 and 200 nibs will interchange.

Bring the pen to the next SF Pen Posse, someone there can get the nib adjusted for you.

And if you get your 400 nib before that, I may want to buy the XF 200 nib from you.

 

BTW, nice find. I've never gotten something that good in all the estate sales I've been to. Always a gamble what you will find.

Edited September 11, 2014 by ac12

[Ana_]

ac12, I just emailed you, unfortunately i'll be out of town for this upcoming weekend's meeting. I hope i'm around for the one after! I took a look at Richard Binders site where I want to buy that interchangeable M400 14 k gold nib and see that my wallet is currently in discord with the im sure worthwhile price, soooo, I am definitely interested in getting this current nib repaired asap. Know of anyone locally who can do this in-between meetings? That's essentially what I emailed you about.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ana_

[Bo Bo Olson]

95 % of skipping is misaligned tines and holding the fountain pen too high like a ball point.

 

One, must hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen behind the big index finger knuckle....at 45 degrees, or at the start of the web of the thumb at 40 degrees, or let the pen rest in the pit of the web of the thumb at 35 degrees.

 

It's a standard sized pen, and will have better balance posted than non-posted. If you fear mars wax your pen.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[sargetalon]

Ok, those are solid references as to the type of pen, thank you for those. I sure do have a 200. Why does one of the sites refer to it as an R200 and the other as an M200? I think what I will do is have the tines straightened by a professional and also buy an m400 medium (this pen is extra fine) 14 ct. gold nib. I think I read that the 400 and 200 have interchangeable nibs, is that right?

R200 is the rollerball version of the same pen. M200 is the fountain pen version.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Ana_

Your 200's nib is a good one, a true springy regular flex nib....as good as a 120's nib or as good as a '90's 400 nib. You need to get a 10-12-15X loupe to adjust your nib....you need that loupe as is...a once in a life time buy. It is good for looking at hall marks on gold and silver too. Coins and stamps.

 

Adjusting the nib is easy....just bend down from the breather hole the tine that is up a few times for 3-4 seconds. You can not see by eye, nor the house hold magnifying glass, you need the loupe.

 

I say true regular flex, in most modern nibs are now semi-nail instead, like a P-75's nib.

 

The modern 400 nib is slightly stiff, and has a blobby nib......oh, of course it's butter smooth.

So what. Lots of lots of butter smooth nails and semi-nails to be had....for cheap.Good springy regular flex nibs are smooth enough, often butter smooth too, and have a bit of life to them.

 

I have other German pens from the '50-60's that are Kugle nibs. The Pelikan, MB, Osmia and a few other German nibs were rather flat under the tines, with out the big American bump under.

A Kugle(ball) nib was made for those who preferred to hold a fountain pen like a pencil. There was a ball at the edge of the front of the tines and onto the back of the nib. The flat bottom was retained to give you a nice clean crisp line, if you wished to hold the pen like a fountain pen, instead of a pencil/ball point.

 

Because of the cross over of ball point and roller ball users today who refuse to hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen...Pelikan has gone over to a double Kugle/ball nib. You have a ball of 'iridium' under, over and the tip is more rounded.

Equals fatter than before width, less crisp line....all in all a substandard nib, made for folks that refuse to learn to write with a fountain pen. Because of the ham fisted pall point and roller ball writers the nib has to be made stiffer so they do not bend it.

 

Hold your fountain pen behind the big knuckle, grasp it like you would a baby featherless bird, & don't make baby bird paste.

 

Do not waste your money on a modern semi-nail 400's nib.

An '83-97 gold nib is well worth having. The '83-89 nib is a tad better than the '90-97 nib those with both say.

 

I do have a '90's 400 nib.....I don't have a modern Pelikan out side my 605...which is a fat blobby semi-nail nib....no life to it, like the semi-vintage '80s-97 nibs.

 

Well, I finally got a few old Pelikan nibs to swap in and out, a semi-flex B out of my 400n tortoise that is now on my 605...and an OBB 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex from my 500, that I could put in one of those many pretty 600's.....unfortunately...I'd have to get a modern nib in it....that needs thinning and adding flex to it. So nibmeister costs are added to the cost of the pretty pen.....that makes those 600's too expensive for me. The modern 400 nib is just as bad as the modern 600's nib.

 

The grand semi-flex and 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex nibs of the '50-60's, would be for later for you.

 

You are not going to get a better nib with a modern nib, even if gold, than what you have....once you have adjusted the tines, and or learned to hold it properly.

If you insist on the gold nib....make sure it is nice springy regular flex semi-vintage with a crisper line, instead of modern stiff fat blobby junk.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[Matlock]

Ana_

Your 200's nib is a good one, a true springy regular flex nib....as good as a 120's nib or as good as a '90's 400 nib. You need to get a 10-12-15X loupe to adjust your nib....you need that loupe as is...a once in a life time buy. It is good for looking at hall marks on gold and silver too. Coins and stamps.

 

Adjusting the nib is easy....just bend down from the breather hole the tine that is up a few times for 3-4 seconds. You can not see by eye, nor the house hold magnifying glass, you need the loupe.

 

I say true regular flex, in most modern nibs are now semi-nail instead, like a P-75's nib.

 

The modern 400 nib is slightly stiff, and has a blobby nib......oh, of course it's butter smooth.

So what. Lots of lots of butter smooth nails and semi-nails to be had....for cheap.Good springy regular flex nibs are smooth enough, often butter smooth too, and have a bit of life to them.

 

I have other German pens from the '50-60's that are Kugle nibs. The Pelikan, MB, Osmia and a few other German nibs were rather flat under the tines, with out the big American bump under.

A Kugle(ball) nib was made for those who preferred to hold a fountain pen like a pencil. There was a ball at the edge of the front of the tines and onto the back of the nib. The flat bottom was retained to give you a nice clean crisp line, if you wished to hold the pen like a fountain pen, instead of a pencil/ball point.

 

Because of the cross over of ball point and roller ball users today who refuse to hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen...Pelikan has gone over to a double Kugle/ball nib. You have a ball of 'iridium' under, over and the tip is more rounded.

Equals fatter than before width, less crisp line....all in all a substandard nib, made for folks that refuse to learn to write with a fountain pen. Because of the ham fisted pall point and roller ball writers the nib has to be made stiffer so they do not bend it.

 

Hold your fountain pen behind the big knuckle, grasp it like you would a baby featherless bird, & don't make baby bird paste.

 

Do not waste your money on a modern semi-nail 400's nib.

An '83-97 gold nib is well worth having. The '83-89 nib is a tad better than the '90-97 nib those with both say.

 

I do have a '90's 400 nib.....I don't have a modern Pelikan out side my 605...which is a fat blobby semi-nail nib....no life to it, like the semi-vintage '80s-97 nibs.

 

Well, I finally got a few old Pelikan nibs to swap in and out, a semi-flex B out of my 400n tortoise that is now on my 605...and an OBB 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex from my 500, that I could put in one of those many pretty 600's.....unfortunately...I'd have to get a modern nib in it....that needs thinning and adding flex to it. So nibmeister costs are added to the cost of the pretty pen.....that makes those 600's too expensive for me. The modern 400 nib is just as bad as the modern 600's nib.

 

The grand semi-flex and 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex nibs of the '50-60's, would be for later for you.

 

You are not going to get a better nib with a modern nib, even if gold, than what you have....once you have adjusted the tines, and or learned to hold it properly.

If you insist on the gold nib....make sure it is nice springy regular flex semi-vintage with a crisper line, instead of modern stiff fat blobby junk.

 

 

 

 

I think you may have (just) made your point Bo Bo .

[JulioPB]

Hi Ana.

 

I think is the Noodlers ink.

Try another brand of ink: Waterman, Pelikan, Diamine.

Julio

[KBeezie]

Hi Ana.

 

I think is the Noodlers ink.

Try another brand of ink: Waterman, Pelikan, Diamine.

Julio

 

Or just another Noodler's ink since they cover a wide range of different properties. (Some Diamines are worse than some Noodler's inks, and vice versa)

[Ana_]

WOW BoBo,

FANTASTIC thorough response! Thank you Thank you! I wrote again and was paying attention this time to the angle at which I held the fp and it seemed to be at about 60 degrees, so I dropped it down to about 35-45 and that did improve some of the skipping. I think that absolutely, with practice at holding my fp at a 30-40 degree angle and an adjustment to the tines, that will completely solve my skipping issues. My Safari clear view Lamy's allow me to write more upright, closer to 70 degrees with zero skipping and now thanks to your explanation of modern nib material compensation for this, I understand why.

 

I can completely appreciate the pen nib that I have purchased also thanks to your reply and look forward to having it run smoothly. You saved me a dime or 2,000!

 

I think I will wait for the pen posse meetup to learn how to adjust the tines. I learn by seeing first and then after that can emulate via instructions. The 15x loupe sounds like a good investment. I had been trying to use my house magnifying glass. I will do my best not to make baby bird paste. I am extremely visual and can not get the baby bird image out of my mind I have printed out your post and am keeping it for future shopping references. I appreciate your knowledge. Thank You again, insightful reply.

 

JulioPB and KBeezie,

Thank you for your replies as well, all information is so critical to my learning curve. Is the Noodler's Borealis Black a heavy ink? Is that why it could be a contributing factor? The other black that I have is a Kaweco black. Is that better in terms of viscosity? Or is this a matter of other material clogging and not thickness? I do have a Noodlers nightshade, but I like black and do you think that a different noodlers black would be better than my borealis black for smooth flow? I know Noodlers does quite a variety of black. I chose the Borealis because it seemed the darkest but having said that, I want that perfect pen flow and black ink marriage so am totally open to suggestions. Thank you

[ac12]

Borealis is "supposed" to duplicate Aurora black, which is a wet ink. I do not know if Borealis is indeed as wet as Aurora black.

The other ink you can try is Waterman black. That is my standard wet ink to use in pens that run dry.

However, Pelikan pens from what I know/heard are wet writing pens. So wet ink in a wet pen = potentially messy.

If you do change inks, make sure to clean the pen as well as you can, so your testing is not influenced by Borealis black still in the pen.

 

Few other ideas to try:

 

#1 - From behind the pen, look at the nib as you hold the pen. Is it level? I find it very easy to accidentally rotate the pen so you are writing on the side of the tip. And when you do that, the ink does not flow. Level the pen, and that should be the "sweet spot" where both tines are on the paper, and ink can flow. On some pens, I think primarily the finer tips, it can be very easy to roll off the sweet spot.

 

#2 - Unscrew the nib, then rinse in water, then put it in a narrow cup, tip down and filled with water, leave it to soak over night.

On used/neglected pens, I find a cloud of ink at the bottom of the glass after the soak. That is ink that did not come out when flushing.

Repeat the soak process until NOTHING comes out of nib from the soak. I've had pens that took days to clean out the old ink. My worst was a Parker 51 that took me 3 weeks of soaking (changing the water 2x a day) until it essentially stopped releasing old ink into the soak water.

With a gold or stainless steel nib, I would use an Ultrasonic cleaner (USC) to clean away the old dry ink quickly. But with a plated nib, I would soak. The risk is that an USC might deplate the gold plating on the nib, been there done that. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, no way I know of to predict.

 

You do not need to go down to 30 degrees above horizontal. I normally hold my pens at about 45 degrees, and they do just fine. If you have to go down that flat, something is going on that needs to be looked at. This sounds like it may need an in person evaluation of the pen and how you write. See you at the Pen Posse.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Good ideas by AC-12.

You can also unscrew the nib, take a rubber ear syringe or a needle syringe and clean out the inside of a 200. I just did. I soaked the nib, ran a hard stream of water from the rubber bulb syringe over the nib. Then filled the piston with water from the bulb, and squirted clean water through the nib.

When cycling the pen, there will be less ink, than not taking the nib out.

That's a bit faster and a tad less wearing on the pen, rather than cycling the pen 20 times to get rid of all the ink.

 

I let the weight of the pen, decide if it's going to be 'held' had 45 degrees, or settles in at the start of the web of the thumb...A heavier pen settles at the pit of the web of thumb.

 

Posting standard (200/400 Esterbrook DJ) or medium large pen is normal (600 or P-51). Or is for me, who grew up with those pens back in the day of B&W TV. That can drop a pen naturally to 40 degrees.

I find those pens have better balance posted.

I seldom post a Large pen, but when I do, they like a heavier metal pen, settle in the pit of the thumb.

 

Some nibs are a bit off with the geometry of the nib grind, requiring a lower or higher ie 45 degree hold.

Normally a 45 degree hold is adequate...but I don't see 'making' it hold there at all costs. That starts involving force.

A good tipped pen should be able to hold at any of the three 'positions', and if a pen is picky....let it win.

 

When I came back to fountain pens after decades of not using them....I knew where; 45 degrees & how to hold it......with the 'Death Grip & dreaded Kung Fu Thumb Pinch', making pure baby bird paste.

 

Having a '90's 400 in gold nib...was a bit snobby...back when I had less expenses; inks&papers, didn't buy a 200, in I had the semi-vintage 400. I have now some 26 semi-flex and 14 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex; some in gold, some in very good steel. And have come to like "true" springy regular flex pens..... It is so easy to become snobby.

Regular flex F&M often give better shading, than the wetter writing semi-flex....depending on the inks. It only costs @ $25 for your next width in Pelikan 200 nibs.

 

Then I trans-mailed over a bit of time five 200 nibs; in some German idiots want a fortune to ship from Germany to England. They impressed me. From very nice springy regular flex like the 120 (-two) or even better (3) like my semi-vintage 400. That will be luck of the draw.

 

I'll not be getting a 200, in I have semi-vintage and vintage 400's. I will be getting a 215 though. As I said that 200's nib impressed me.

Modern Pelikan gold nibs not.

 

The Pelikan Celebry ('90-200something) which is a metal C/C pen has a fine steel springy regular flex nib, and in gold too. I was going to sell my steel nibbed Celebry as soon as I got my gold nibbed one.

Having the gold one made me test the steel nib better to see how much better the gold nib was. Both were equally grand nibs, as good as my '90's 400.

No way I'm going to sell that Celebry steel nibbed pen.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[whych]

Good ideas by AC-12.

You can also unscrew the nib, take a rubber ear syringe or a needle syringe and clean out the inside of a 200. I just did. I soaked the nib, ran a hard stream of water from the rubber bulb syringe over the nib. Then filled the piston with water from the bulb, and squirted clean water through the nib.

When cycling the pen, there will be less ink, than not taking the nib out.

That's a bit faster and a tad less wearing on the pen, rather than cycling the pen 20 times to get rid of all the ink.

Before you unscrew the nib, make sure to flush the pen out and soak the whole nib up to the ink view window first to make sure there is no dried ink holding the nib.

 

The skipping could be that you are rotating the pen as you are writing. With an XF nib, this could mean you are using an edge of the nib instead of the whole nib. The XF nib doesn't have a wide tipping area.

Try drawing a lot of tick marks and if it doesn't skip, you know you are rotating the nib when you write.

[JulioPB]

Hi Ana:

 

First let me tell the only EF nib I have is in Pelikan M150 gold plated steel nib, and works perfectlly with Private Reserve Supershow Blue.

 

Borealis is the deepest black I have, but does not work fine in all pens,

I have not tried Kaweco but I think could be good.

 

Waterman inks are among the best flowing in the market

The black one is some greyish but I like it.

Pelikan inks have good flow too, and the black is a nice deep black, almost like Borealis.

 

These inks are not expesive too.

 

Julio MX

[ac12]

BoBo

I followed the recommendation of several here on FPN, I went the route of dip pens to do flex. Besides being a LOT cheaper than a fountain pen, I began to enjoy using a dip pen. In fact, I rather do flex with a dip pen nib in an oblique dip pen holder. And I can easily change the nib to whatever nib I feel like using. From a little to a lot of flex. At less than $2 a nib, it is cheap and fun to try a bunch of different nibs.

 

Maybe one day I will get a flex fountain pen, just to see what that is all about.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The folks have given a lot of good advice. As suggested....Do soak a nib before unscrewing the first time...or if not unscrewed in a long time. Paper and ink is always important. Paper often more than the ink.

 

Ac12 there are dip pen nibs like the Hunt 99-100-101 that make a Super flex look like a nail. I have a hand full of Super Flex, only one wet noodle. Those Hunt nibs flex when there is an earthquake in California.

There are others like a Soennecken which are no where near as flexible but are wet noodles.

 

I'm no where near an expert, just lucked out that some like the Hunts were sent to me from the States, others were local German manufacture; there are also nail ornamental nibs... and others of of more flex. Most that I do have have real good to great dip pen flex....(no 303-403 Gillette)

 

I got a few oblique pen holders..... unused.

Have not found the time to play with them. I hope too soon, in I'm in the last two chapters of the book I'm writing. It's still got to be cut, but that is another story. It will be divided into three books, once I figure out where.

 

A wet noodle needs not only the light hand and an idea how to draw letters. Sigh.....that takes work....same like a good flexible dip pen nib. One needs a good ink for major flex also.

That is beyond me, yet.

Yet, is a great word for FPN....we all start there, and the more one knows...the more yet, still is.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson