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How Big An Idiot Am I For Asking Whether You Can Dremel A 51 Nib To Make It Italic?


Derivativemusic

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On a scale from 1 to 100?

 

Is it possible?

 

I asked where to get an italic nib a few weeks ago, and the consensus was to have a nibmeister make one for me. That's also possible. But do Italic pens need balls on their ends, or are they simply cut off?

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I'm looking at this picture, which makes it appear like the italic nib is just ground straight across. And if I were to buy a cheap nib to play with - there was one for under $10 on ebay - okay, there has to be more to it than just grinding it straight across, right?

 

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/nibs/flex_italic.htm

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With 100 being get the Thorazine and jacket, on your first try using a Dremel, about a 95.

 

At least by hand with proper grinding materials, you could drop doing a harder to find, expensive to replace 51 nib down to about a 75.

 

Bruce in a Ocala, Fl

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Okay...then let me rephrase the question. Is there more to it than just cutting the thing off straight across?

 

The issue of whether to use a Dremel or a file - how to do it - comes later. :)

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I use a dremel. Binder and Girdler and Kennedy use dremels.

Oxonian uses a dremel.

What's the big deal?

 

:)

None of you did your First grind with one though.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

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I have two 14K stubs obviously made by newbs. The tipping has been ground off of each, leaving the gold stubbed. They are probably italic. The first thing I did on receipt of each of these pens was to order a NOS 51 nib. Next I cleaned each pen up and waited. When the nibs came, I removed the stub/italic masterpieces and put in the new nib.

 

I didn't write with the stubbed 14K nibs, because the gold would wear down. I thought I might have them retipped as proper stubs, but there always seemed to be another secondhand or NOS pen I would want to try.

 

If you grind the nib, leave tipping. Worst case, if you take all the tipping off, send it off to be retipped as a stub, and, if you need something like a CI or sharp italic, you will have the benefit of experience and will do better. If the retip cost really taught you something, you will let someone more experienced do the slight regrind.

 

I don't think my first grind would be a 51. Do it to an Esterbrook or something like that. Years ago I bought a Sheaffer C/C Imperial in broad for $5. 1970s. I always hated it, so I reground that into a satisfactory stub. Not a pen like a 51 where a new nib is about $40 or a retip about $100 or so. You could try grinding an Octanium nib. If you ruin the tipping, you will be left with a steel nib, like some Esterbrook italics, the 2312 italic. Octanium nibs cost less than 14K nibs.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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On a scale from 1 to 100?

 

Is it possible?

 

I asked where to get an italic nib a few weeks ago, and the consensus was to have a nibmeister make one for me. That's also possible. But do Italic pens need balls on their ends, or are they simply cut off?

 

Is it possible to make an italic on a "51"? Yes, absolutely. Is it easy? Not at all.

 

A proper italic will have tipping material. If the tipping is ground off completely, the nib isn't ground properly.

 

 

I'm looking at this picture, which makes it appear like the italic nib is just ground straight across. And if I were to buy a cheap nib to play with - there was one for under $10 on ebay - okay, there has to be more to it than just grinding it straight across, right?

 

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/nibs/flex_italic.htm

 

Nope. There are 5 surfaces of the nib to deal with. Two surfaces, the sides, are often left unground because the starting nib is the desired width and doesn't need to be narrowed.

 

And, an "italic" has many variants. From the most sharp and least forgiving to the most forgiving and least sharp they are: 1.) The Crisp Italic; 2.) The Cursive Italic; 3.) The Stub Italic. Some of these nibs are cut the same way, but are finished differently. Some are cut similarly, but differently...

 

Which "italic" are you looking to have???

 

Okay...then let me rephrase the question. Is there more to it than just cutting the thing off straight across?

 

The issue of whether to use a Dremel or a file - how to do it - comes later. :)

 

There are several things to consider:

 

1. A Dremel is a very good way to make the Italic. However, what grit of cutting disc are you going to use? Since you probably don't want a crisp italic, how will you finish the nib after the initial cuts are made?

 

2. Speaking of the cuts... Do you know the cuts to make on the nib? Since the pellet does remain attached to the nib, how much does one take off and from what surfaces of the nib do you want to grind the material off?

 

3. What about the shell (hood) on the "51"? The shell cannot be on the pen when the nib is ground. How do you plan to hold the nib while grinding it? If you simply remove the shell and leave the nib on the feed, you run a great risk of damaging the feed... I have a special tool, made for me by a dear friend in the pen business that I use so that the nib is entirely removed from the pen.

 

So, there are a whole host of reasons to, perhaps, reconsider grinding a "51" nib at this point... And, there's likely good reason to consider a lot of practice grinding cheap, junk nibs before moving on to more, shall we say, precious nibs like the "51".

 

Also, the Parker Octainium nibs are not the same as the 14K nibs. You can, and should, practice on something other than a 14K nib, but the Octainum nibs have weaker welds at the tipping material and, sometimes, with a bit of stress (like the stress put on a nib by grinding) the tips can and do come off the nib. So, before you get to the Octainium practice, practice on cheaper, more regular nibs.

 

More to think about.....

 

Really, none of us are "good" at grinding when we start. Like any skill there's a mix of science and art And, when you get the mix of art and science and are comfortable with the procedure, then the practice begins. For any good nib worker who grinds nibs for others, I'll guarantee there are a collection of dead, practice nibs on the shop floor. Each mis-cut, each mis-grind is a learning experience.

 

At the DC Pen Show this year, I had the opportunity to examine a (reportedly) very early Binder nib. Being that Richard is my teacher in these things, I love looking at and studying his work. The very interesting thing to me was that this nib being an early nib, the cuts were different than the cuts I was taught... From what I've understood from others, Richard has always had "game" when doing nibs (Duh!). But, even his process and procedure has evolved. In other words, grinding is not static; the grinders evolve. There is much to be said for experience, and it is a great teacher.

 

And then there's preference. Though Richard taught me what he does and though he taught Linda Kennedy (who is a FANTASTIC nib worker) what he does, my nibs and Linda's nibs are different from Richard's nibs. For instance: I prefer my cursive italics smoother than Richard does so I finish my cursive italics a bit different than Richard does.

 

Again, there are many things to consider before you put a nib on any type of grinding surface.... And, I wish you all the best in you endeavors.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim

Tim Girdler Pens  (Nib Tuning; Custom Nib Grinding; New & Vintage Pen Sales)
The Fountain Pen: An elegant instrument for a more civilized age.
I Write With: Any one of my assortment of Parker "51"s or Vacumatics

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Well... I picked up about 10 cheap pens to grind them as a training before handling anything expensive, But grinding a stub with my dremel was pretty easy. Just go slow and don't grind too harsh, flatten the bottom of the nib and the front and then you got a sharp edge where you're writing, smooth that down with a very fine micro mesh to the smoothness that you like. But everything you do, stay within the tipping like it has been said already. If you grind to the gold it's going to wear down very fast.

 

http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/aboutpens/ludwig-tan.html

 

I've done it to a Lamy nib for example. It's no nibmeister work but it works quite well:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/272350-lamy-11mm-gold-stub-nib/

My Pens/Nibs (inked/active): Lamy Studio/Vista/Joy (XXF slight-flex custom | 14k EF | EF | F | 14k M | M | B | 14k 1.1 custom | 1.1 | 1.5 | 1.9), TWSBI Diamond 580 (F | Pendleton BadBoy | Zebra G | F.P.R. semi-flex), Pilot Falcon EF, Penkala Vintage 14k semi-flex, Pilot Parallel (2.4 | 3.8 | 6.0)

http://www.fp-ink.info/img/button.pngI'm still looking for help/data/supporters/sponsors for my Ink Database - It already contains over 900 Inks but is still low on data about the inks except on the Inks I got myself or where I found nice data sheets. So Im looking for these: InkSamples mailed to me, Permissions to use InkReviews - preferable by people who have a lot of InkReviews online, InkReviews mailed to me so I can scan them, Sponsors that will help me to finance InkSamples, People willing to trade InkSamples (list of available Inks from me is available via PM request - please include available Inks)

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100 because you start by announcing that you don't know what you are doing.

Auf freiem Grund mit freiem Volke stehn.
Zum Augenblicke dürft ich sagen:
Verweile doch, du bist so schön !

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My point about no Dremel for a First grind is that mistakes happen so fast that way.

 

At least grinding slower, by hand, you have the chance to see and feel on paper the mistake starting to happen before the tipping is dust.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

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variable speed dremels can go pretty darn slow. :)

Yeah, but most people either don't Think about that Before they Buy that Dremel, getting the much cheaper two speed one or aren't ready for that "higher priced spread".

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

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My point about no Dremel for a First grind is that mistakes happen so fast that way.

 

At least grinding slower, by hand, you have the chance to see and feel on paper the mistake starting to happen before the tipping is dust.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

There is some good wisdom here.

 

A Dremel can take MUCH more off than you realize it can. It also depends on what grit of a grinding wheel you're using. Also, you can put angles on the nib if you're not VERY careful.

 

Doing a few by hand allows you to learn the cuts you should be doing, among other things. Then, the Dremel only serves as a more expedient tool...

 

Remember: The Dremel doesn't do the grinding, you do. Whether you use a Dremel or other tools, you are one who grinds the nib.... That said, The cursive and crisp italics are not likely to be done properly without a power tool. So, learn by doing stubs without a power tool. Then, do stubs on the Dremel, and after you're comfortable with using the Dremel on a stub, move to the italics. Learning to do it slowly (without a power tool) will bring higher dividends in the future.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim

Tim Girdler Pens  (Nib Tuning; Custom Nib Grinding; New & Vintage Pen Sales)
The Fountain Pen: An elegant instrument for a more civilized age.
I Write With: Any one of my assortment of Parker "51"s or Vacumatics

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measure twice, cut once?

 

My experience is that anything motorized gets me into trouble faster than by hand. Not being a nib master myself, it seems the best way to learn by yourself is to start by hand and work through the process before going power. I guess if you have experience as a master machinist the previous may not apply to you.

 

Craig

A consumer and purveyor of words.

 

Co-editor and writer for Faith On Every Corner Magazine

Magazine - http://www.faithoneverycorner.com/magazine.html

 

 

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