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Inky T O D - Mold & Slime - How Long Should An Ink Last?


Agge

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I have been thinking about how long can I expect a european produced ink to last without any growth in it?

 

From what I understand a relative new EU rule require fountain pen inks to be safe for consumptions by children (why?).

 

This requirement significantly limit the producers ability to add biocides and similar compounds (makes it impossible?).

 

 

Do anyone know if:

 

European manufacturer add any biocide?

 

How long the ink should be stable before groft can happen?

 

If any of the manufacturer have any "of the record" recommendation on what biocide could be added to make the ink inhospitable for growths for at least 20-50 years?

 

 

 

I am also curious about the rule. If it is a rule concerning paints used by children of course the kit of water colour marketed to children should be safe to eat but a ink marketed to adults for use in fountain pens shouldn't it just be to put a "not suitable for children below 12 and maybe a child proof lid on the bottle?

 

If the problem is that they have more rules to follow concerning handling of the concentrated biocides why not have a professional laboratorium dilute the biocide. From my experience most biocides is only needed in minute amounts othen below 0.05% to be effective. So the manufacturer could get a 0.1% or 0.2% solution and add the dyes and more water to get the correct concentration in the end. I know from experience that a 10% solution of a common biocide is handled with only regular latex gloves and protective glasses.

 

 

 

 

Anyone that have good connections inside the different manufacturer that would be able to ask the correct person?

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The people who make rules think that the world is a penitentiary and they are the wardens. There are already more laws and rules than anyone can remember, and so we must have more of them. I once had a platoon sergeant who couldn't understand how the non-military world could function with all these civilians running around with nobody in charge of them.

Can a calculator understand a cash register?

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Agge, I modified the title and made this an Inky TOD. These days both European and American inks should last a long time, though I do understand from Pelikan that some of their inks (Blue Black Iron Gall) differ between markets because the United States does not permit the entry of certain chemicals.

 

That being said, I have bottles in my possession that are much older than I am ... and I'm old enough to have worn cloth diapers. I have bottles of ink which are more than 60 years old and have never slimed or molded. I have had a sample of the JHerbin inks that were made during a particularly bad period and did develop slime.

 

In my opinion, your ink should still be safe from slime and mold for your grandchildren's children to safely enjoy.

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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OH, and people around here have been known to drink the ink.

 

 

fpn_1361419557__tsa.jpg

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I hope that modern inks will last as long as vintage inkes. So my question is more of a "Should they do that the way they were manufactured or would it be good to add something to make it sure that they do that?"

 

 

For example my J. Herbin have a serial number the De Atramentis inks don't. And a Montblanc irish green have a sell before date on the seal of the box.

Interpreting that with just the first thought about it: J. Herbin wants to be able to track any quality issues, De Atramentis are more relaxed about it. And Montblanc don't even trust that the ink last more than 7-8 years in an unopened bottle in an unopened box sitting on the shelf of the store.

 

 

But then the best before / sell before date is often really strange I personally own porters at about 10-12% with a sticker that say it last for 3 years but the original labeling from the brewer say it will last for at least 25 years (and in some cases best after it have been aged 5-10 years).

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Well, let's see my MBs have sell dates on them too, but have MB inks from the late 1980s.

 

I did buy some phenol and add it to my inks, but the more I have thought about it, I wish I hadn't done so. The manufacturers spend a lot of time and money getting that pH balance just right. Why would I with my high school chemistry certificate think that I know more than the chemists?

 

So, my experience (not educated) guess, is that your ink so long as it is not one of the known quirky batches, should last 5 decades or more.

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I begun to worry about this after I got a bad batch ink in the second order of inks.

After checking on the forum and asking some questions I contacted my father that is a educated chemist and work as one of the ones responsible for one of the largest laboratories in the city.

 

After he said that I could come and visit and bring the problem inks I first thought "lets bring all my inks that are not made by noodlers" but after thinking about it I only brought the problematic bottle because was worried that something might react with the biocide. My father actually was surprised that I only brought one bottle.

 

 

 

 

P.S.

After re re reading the J. Herbin I noticed that they actually write about using a preservative and I had completely forgotten those line and only remembered it as that they manufactured and packaged the ink sterile.

 

And I feel a that I have worried about it completely unnecessary.

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If I had the equipment necessary I would really love to do some aggressive growth test on several inks.

 

 

You should post that here.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/271037-inky-t-o-d-experiments-and-exercises-in-curiosity-blonde-optimism/

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Not sure who makes Cross inks, but my old one smelled like something died in it. I guess it was rotting.

 

Also wouldn't sticking a UV light in the bottle kill the growth?

#Nope

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Icywolfe: No. UV isn't even useful to sterilize water unless you have preferably both a really strong uv source and only a very thin amount of water for a actual solution of dyes you need to add a biocide to kill growths.

 

 

 

I actually did some concept drawings for using UV instead of chlorine to keep a pole clean. IIRC (this was several years ago and might be completely wrong) the really basic calculations I did you would get a really severe and fast sunburn if you were in the water when the UV where running + it would need a ridiculous amount of energie. Even if a bottle if ink is a lot smaller the uv penetration is allot less in a non clear solution.

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Well, let's see my MBs have sell dates on them too, but have MB inks from the late 1980s.

 

I did buy some phenol and add it to my inks, but the more I have thought about it, I wish I hadn't done so. The manufacturers spend a lot of time and money getting that pH balance just right. Why would I with my high school chemistry certificate think that I know more than the chemists?

 

So, my experience (not educated) guess, is that your ink so long as it is not one of the known quirky batches, should last 5 decades or more.

 

Hey, well, I hated chemistry and eschewed it for math and just a little bit of physics whenever possible. Having said that, my understanding is that phenol is a very weak acid, and the pH of phenol of course depends on the concentration. I haven't worked it out (heavens, it's been a long time since I worked out anything like that), but I doubt adding a ml or two of 4% phenol solution going to have a big effect on the pH of 50 to 90 ml of ink. I also find it hard to believe that "manufacturers spend a lot of time and money getting that pH balance just right" since the measured pH's of inks are all over the place, and that includes Noodler's to some extent, wandering around as they seem to (modulo the accuracy of the measurements we have seen, about which there is some doubt) in the 6 to 8 range. This is not to mention that the pH will drift if you just uncap the ink for awhile (which lets Noodler's off the hook, anyway, if you were expecting something closer to 7). So, like I said, what do I know? But I suspect it is safe to "chill" just a little on this point.

 

I suspect that MB dates their inks for two reasons. One is so that they don't have to replace old bottles that go bad from contamination. Another is so that they can sell new bottles to people who don't actually need them. I could be wrong about this... :)

Edited by mhosea

I know my id is "mhosea", but you can call me Mike. It's an old Unix thing.

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Well, any excuse to buy ink....

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mhosea: Unless the phenol(it is a powder in pure form) is dissolved in something else then vatter it will have a negligible effect on the ph of the ink.

Then of course it might have allot of other effects depending on the exact chemicals in the ink but the biggest one unless something spectacular happens is that it is going to dilute it slightly and that might have allot more effect that you think it should.

 

My addition of 0.5ml(10%Sodium azide in water) to 60 ml of ink made the ink flow better and have a slightly more noticeable shading :) So in the end that was good effects by my perspective.

The better flow might just have been that the mold died of and stopped to adhere to other cells of mold.

 

 

It would be interesting to know what the best way to measure the PH of ink would be especially since most PH measurement processes are based on dyes that change colour at specific points.

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Icywolfe: No. UV isn't even useful to sterilize water unless you have preferably both a really strong uv source and only a very thin amount of water for a actual solution of dyes you need to add a biocide to kill growths.

 

 

 

I actually did some concept drawings for using UV instead of chlorine to keep a pole clean. IIRC (this was several years ago and might be completely wrong) the really basic calculations I did you would get a really severe and fast sunburn if you were in the water when the UV where running + it would need a ridiculous amount of energie. Even if a bottle if ink is a lot smaller the uv penetration is allot less in a non clear solution.

I was thinking about those water purifying UV lights they sell. Get some supercharged version of that.

#Nope

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I personally wouldn't trust those to purify water that was unsafe and was supposed to be used for drinking water after using a dip uv stick.

 

For ink it might work in a highlighter ink but not in a ink that are opaque but it should be safe to try.

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Many decades ago when I was a kid I used some generic blue inks that seemed to last forever without developing SITB. Some bottles would not have a perfect cap seal and the water would evaporate over time making the ink more concentrated but that was not a big concern (you could always add back some water...).

 

If in 2014 a manufacturer can't make their inks similarly well behaved, the bottle hits the trash can and the brand name gets added to my "never buy again anything from these guys" list.

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Many decades ago when I was a kid I used some generic blue inks that seemed to last forever without developing SITB. Some bottles would not have a perfect cap seal and the water would evaporate over time making the ink more concentrated but that was not a big concern (you could always add back some water...).

 

If in 2014 a manufacturer can't make their inks similarly well behaved, the bottle hits the trash can and the brand name gets added to my "never buy again anything from these guys" list.

What if it was a ultra handmade ink. Like primitive style. Bugs, shells, fruits, plants, etc. But dip only.

 

 

I personally wouldn't trust those to purify water that was unsafe and was supposed to be used for drinking water after using a dip uv stick.

 

For ink it might work in a highlighter ink but not in a ink that are opaque but it should be safe to try.

Camper's do use that to purify water. They just get the water from a moving river.

Edited by Icywolfe

#Nope

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