Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[JonSzanto]

Would someone please show Lazard how to use the quote functions so a person can tell what are his words and what are someone else's?

 

Or not.

[kirchh]

I think you have forgotten that you no longer claim that evaporating alcohol can transport shellac, as the organic chemist explained to you. Daniel.

 

Our friend organic chemist has understood only a little and has proven nothing. He is very far from proving that the diffusion process, as is named, spread through the air or through the celluloid itself was not possible.

 

I understand that you believe the organic chemist is wrong when he explains to you that evaporating alcohol cannot transport shellac. You made the claim that this chemical process occurs, so the burden of proof is on you. You have not provided any such proof, nor have you even provided any credentials to contradict what the organic chemist says. Therefore, your claim is completely unsupported.

 

I will also remind you that you claim that this depositing of shellac particles throughout the barrel of a pen occurs within a few hours, because that's when nearly all the alcohol evaporates.

 

Also, you claim that the quantity of shellac that is left in the pen is at least ten times greater than the quantity actually applied to the pen, because al the shellac is observed to remain on the area of application, but you claim the entire interior of the barrel is coated with shellac particles also.

 

Therefore, under your hypothesis, you know more about organic chemistry than an organic chemist, celluloid pens show ambering throughout their barrels within hours of the installation of a section using shellac, and the amount of shellac that ends up in the pen is an order of magnitude greater than that which was actually applied to the parts.

 

Obviously, your hypothesis is nonsense.

 

There is shellac on a certain place |

 

there is shellac where fpen manufacturers Manual Service those past years say |

 

there is ambering on THESE SPECIFIC certain place and where Manual say |

 

Your own pictures prove that you're wrong.

 

Note where the ambering is most intense in this picture: below the part of the barrel where the section mates with the mouth of the barrel (generally, under the barrel threads). Interestingly, that's where the sac starts.

 

And, of course, there are those Sheaffers on the left, and the Duofold second from the right. There's no shellac there, and no manufacurer's service manual said to put shellac there. But there sure is a sac there.

 

 

Then there's this picture that you posted:

 

 

You tried to imply that Parker said to apply shellac to the taper or barrel threads, but when I asked you directly to support that claim, you evaded so many times I lost count. Of course, that means that you knew you were being deceitful, and that there was no shellac there. Your hypothesis fails. Again.

 

 

Shellac is a very dying product |

 

SOLID shellac?

 

Because if you're talking about liquid shellac dissolved in alcohol, that's only present on a pen for a few hours, during which the alcohol evaporates.

 

Are you claiming that the vapors of liquid shellac are used for dyeing? If so, you must be saying that the ambering occurs within a few hours of the pen's assembly. That's just logical, right? A citation describing the dying of materials using the vapors of liquid shellac would be useful.

 

 

Shellac contains alcohol (motivates "transparencies" in these cels very similar to those found in many areas of contact section / barrel or "certain place")|

 

You mean liquid shellac contains alcohol. Within a few hours, the alcohol evaporates.

 

Your claim is that during this period of a few hours, the alcohol transports shellac particles, increases their aggregate mass by a factor of at least ten, and causes entire barrels to amber. Therefore, under your hypothesis, pens were completely ambered before they were even shipped to dealers. Interesting.

 

 

In the sac contac zones we see darkening but not ambering |

 

You might want to take another look at some vintage fountain pens -- such as the ones in this picture:

 

 

You must have overlooked those Sheaffers on the left, and that Duofold on the right. Because they show ambering throughout their barrels. Where sacs are. Where shellac isn't.

 

We're talking about not fully cured celluloid with porous surface and not polished barrel areas |

 

Alcohol dissolves especially the first celluloid |

 

True, and most of the alcohol in liquid shellac evaporates within hours. So the ambering takes place within hours, according to you.

 

But it doesn't. So your hypothesis is wrong.

 

There are more ambering in areas where are more shellac |

 

False. I should find a Duofold with an ambered barrel, because apparently you've never seen one. Oh, wait, you posted a picture of one! Here it is again -- don't forget to look at it so you will learn something that apparently you did not notice before:

 

 

When Parker replaced shellac by "white" Vacumatic cement ambaring practically disappears |

 

False. Vacumatic barrels continued to display ambering, particularly in the area adjacent to the diaphragm, when latex diaphragms were used

 

Against this evidence has been provided nothing just mere words |

 

Are you unfamiliar with logic? It is often expressed using "just mere words." Here's an example:

 

You claim that during the few hours while the alcohol in shellac is evaporating, it carries particles of shellac throughout the barrel of a vintage pen, dyeing the barrel amber.

 

Pen barrels do not turn amber within a few hours of shellac being applied.

 

Therefore, using logic, we can conclude that the evaporating shellac does not carry particles of shellac throughout the barrel of a pen causing ambering. Q. E. D.

 

Just mere words. Words of logic. I suppose some people do not believe in logic -- not much to be done there.

 

|----------> therefore Alcohol is not good for my fountain pens and shellac have alcohol and shellac causes more ambering than sac in the first celluloids during years 20s and 30s

 

This conclusion does not logically follow from the facts presented.

 

Don't you find it extremely interesting that you have been unable to convince even a single person here of the validity of your hypothesis? Why do you think that is?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Note where the ambering is most intense in this picture: below the part of the barrel where the section mates with the mouth of the barrel (generally, under the barrel threads). Interestingly, that's where the sac starts. DANIEL

 

(Excuses, I write in capital letters because my FPN editor does not work in my browser. Lazard)

 

I WANTED DRIVING YOU HERE. UNDER THE BARREL THREADS IS NOZLE/SAC WHERE YOU WANT TO KEEP PUTTING MORE SHELLAC FOR MORE AMBERING.

 

WE ARE AGREE. THIS AMBERING IS MOST INTENSE BECAUSE THERE ARE SHELLAC IN THE SECTION/BARREL... PLUS THAT GETS SOMETHING BELOW, IN THE NOZZLE/SAC.

 

 

YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK. YOU ARE GOING UNDERSTAND.

[GG917]

OK, time to sign off on this particular exercise in futility.

 

Lazard is not going to be convinced, no matter what.

I totally agree with that and this is going to be my last post on this thread.

 

If, and only if, shellac was a sublimable compounds, it will be of no use in FP. Sublimation is the physical process in which a substance goes directly from the solid state into the gas state. Like evaporation but for a solid.

I am not going to waste my timeandlab ressources to try to sublimate some solid shellac, because it is a polymer (think "plastic") and that is not going to happen. If shellac would be able to sublimate at room temperature and normal athmosperique pressure, it will just disappear in something like a year (to be quite large about time, it could be quicker). I have a vial of solid shellac at home, and the flakes are still there. Since a year.

 

Because you want a demonstration: the main use of shellac is to varnish wooden furniture. As far as I know, it is not reported that shellac stain the room the piece of furniture is placed in. Becasue if a drop can stain a pen, the amount on a piece of furniture can stain a whole room. No matter what kind of material it redeposit on.

 

On something more Fp-centered: I have seen radite caps showing darkening. As far as I know there is no shellac in there, inner cap are friction fit or pressed in. So?

[Lazard 20]

If, and only if, shellac was a sublimable compounds... GC917

 

SOMEONE MAY THINK YOU ARE RECOILING.

 

IT´S EASY, YOU SHOULD TO EXPLAIN THIS AMBERING PHOTO MULTIPLIED IN A POROUS SURFACE NO POLISHED IN A FIRST UNSTABLE CELLULOIDS.



On something more Fp-centered: I have seen radite caps showing darkening. As far as I know there is no shellac in there, inner cap are friction fit or pressed in. So? GC917

 

COULD TO HAVE SHELLAC INSIDE INNER CAP BUT IN ANY CASE YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD VERY LITTLE; DARKENING IS NOT AMBERING AND AMBERING IS WHAT I'M TALKING.

 

I am not going to waste my timeandlab. GG917

EXCUSES, WORDS, WORDS. DO IT, LIKE NOW, IN YOUR FREE TIME. WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT PARTITION COEFFICIENTS, DISTRIBUTION COEFFICIENTS, ABSORPTION FORCES, DENSITY AND, OF COURSE, CAPILLARY FLOW VELOCITY.

TAKE ADVANTAGE AND JUSTIFY THE SHELLAC/CELLULOID CONTACT IS NOT ALSO AFFECTED BY DIFUSSION. WE ARE WAITING YOUR BETTER DEMONSTRATION.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Note where the ambering is most intense in this picture: below the part of the barrel where the section mates with the mouth of the barrel (generally, under the barrel threads). Interestingly, that's where the sac starts. DANIEL

 

(Excuses, I write in capital letters because my FPN editor does not work in my browser. Lazard)

 

I WANTED DRIVING YOU HERE. UNDER THE BARREL THREADS IS NOZLE/SAC WHERE YOU WANT TO KEEP PUTTING MORE SHELLAC FOR MORE AMBERING.

 

Thank you for admitting that the ambering is not most intense where shellac has been in contact with the barrel, contrary to your earlier claims.

 

Remember, you previously wrote,

 

"More ambering on that part of the barrel which touches with section."

 

I appreciate that you now admit that you were wrong, and that the ambering is most intense on that part of the barrel which does not touch the section. This is real progress.

 

 

WE ARE AGREE. THIS AMBERING IS MOST INTENSE BECAUSE THERE ARE SHELLAC IN THE SECTION/BARREL... PLUS THAT GETS SOMETHING BELOW, IN THE NOZZLE/SAC.

 

I'm glad that you now agree that the ambering is not most intense where the barrel touches the section, contrary to your earlier claim.

 

Oh, and a correction: shellac is not in contact with the barrel in the areas you've highlighted as being the most intense regions of ambering. So, there goes your hypothesis. Again.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

I'm glad that you now agree that the ambering is not most intense where the barrel touches the section, contrary to your earlier claim. Daniel.

 

 

ME TOO, BYE BYE.

 

 

[kirchh]

If, and only if, shellac was a sublimable compounds... GC917

 

SOMEONE MAY THINK YOU ARE RECOILING

 

Trust me, we are all recoiling.

 

 

IT´S EASY, YOU SHOULD TO EXPLAIN THIS AMBERING PHOTO MULTIPLIED IN A POROUS SURFACE NO POLISHED IN A FIRST UNSTABLE CELLULOIDS.

 

I can explain it. Shellac is sticky.

 

But it doesn't evaporate with alcohol and change the color of a whole pen barrel in a few hours. So your hypothesis is wrong.

 

 

DARKENING IS NOT AMBERING AND AMBERING IS WHAT I'M TALKING.

 

Like the ambering on the Sheaffer barrels and that Duofold barrel in your picture. Which are ambered in areas near the sac. Where there is no shellac.

 

I am not going to waste my timeandlab. GG917

 

EXCUSES, WORDS, WORDS. DO IT, LIKE NOW, IN YOUR FREE TIME. WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT PARTITION COEFFICIENTS, DISTRIBUTION COEFFICIENTS, ABSORPTION FORCES, DENSITY AND, OF COURSE, CAPILLARY FLOW VELOCITY.

 

TAKE ADVANTAGE AND JUSTIFY THE SHELLAC/CELLULOID CONTACT IS NOT ALSO AFFECTED BY DIFUSSION. WE ARE WAITING YOUR BETTER DEMONSTRATION.

 

I think you forgot that the burden of proof is on you, because you proposed the hypothesis that vintage pens ambered almost completely within hours of their assembly due to the evaporation of alcohol.

 

--Daniel

Edited August 25, 2014 by kirchh

[kirchh]

I'm glad that you now agree that the ambering is not most intense where the barrel touches the section, contrary to your earlier claim. Daniel.

 

 

ME TOO, BYE BYE.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting the proof that the amber material on the interior of a barrel, and which exists to great depth through the barrel walls, cannot be shellac that has disappeared from the sac attachment point, because the shellac in that area is completely undepleted. Not that we needed additional proof, but it does help to further demolish your claim.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Shellac contains alcohol (motivates "transparencies" in these cels very similar to those found in many areas of contact section / barrel or "certain place")|

 

 

 

According to your hypothesis, this barrel went from its original, undiscolored state to this ambered, transparent condition, due to the evaporation of alcohol from shellac, which takes place within a few hours of the shellac being applied.

 

Wouldn't pen dealers have had a great deal of difficulty selling pens that looked like this when they received them from Sheaffer?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I totally agree with that and this is going to be my last post on this thread.

 

If, and only if, shellac was a sublimable compounds, it will be of no use in FP. Sublimation is the physical process in which a substance goes directly from the solid state into the gas state. Like evaporation but for a solid.

 

It is understandable that you could have mistakenly thought that Lazard was claiming that shellac sublimes, given how absurd it would be to say that instead, it is the evaporating alcohol that transports particles of shellac and causes ambering within a few hours. But that's exactly what his claim is -- not that solid shellac sublimes over a long timeframe, but rather that the evaporating alcohol in freshly-applied shellac carries away the shellac and deposits it all over the interior of a pen's barrel, which would take place over a period of just a few hours.

 

--Daniel

[FarmBoy]

I have celluloid dice, buttons, game tokens, radio knobs, pinball machine parts, glasses frames and numerous other items that have changed colors, crystallized, decomposed, darkened, faded, etc. None have been exposed to shellac.

 

I suspect Mr. Lazzard does not understand there different polymers in his examples as well as decomposition of these different polymers can proceed in many different ways.

 

I have several pounds of shellac and gallons of solvents. I think I'll stick a pen barrel in each.

 

A question for Mr. Lazzard if I may. Based on your understanding of shellac, is it also possible that on hard rubber pens where we find fading and discolorization on the barrel but not near the section that the section area stays dark due to the shellac darkening it?

[JonSzanto]

I'm considering ingesting some shellac to see if my colon ambers.

[Procyon]

I'm considering ingesting some shellac to see if my colon ambers.

 

I predict the contents of your colon will amber - not sure about your colon.

[Lazard 20]

The ingredients, if someone want to test shellac diffusion into first celluloids in the laboratory.

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

 

Incorrect, as your own picture proves. The area where the walls of the inner cap lie are the least-ambered portion of the cap, but note the ambering between the bottom end of the inner cap and the mouth of the cap, due to exposure to vapors from a deteriorating sac.

 

The crystallization of the top of the cap is typical of light-colored celluloid in a thick section and has nothing to do with shellac, as it is observed in items that have no shellac on or near them. For example, here are some celluloid buttons that exhibit this characteristic decomposition mode:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

This image is from "Celluloid: Collector's Reference and Value Guide" by Keith Lauer and Julie Robinson. It has a whole chapter explaining the chemistry of this sort of celluloid decomposition. The word "shellac" appears nowhere in it.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Incorrect, as your own picture proves. The area where the walls of the inner cap lie are the least-ambered portion of the cap, but note the ambering between the bottom end of the inner cap and the mouth of the cap, due to exposure to vapors from a deteriorating sac.

--Daniel

 

A black sac can to carry amber color particles through microscopic feed cavity, but an amber dye mixed with alcohol in contact with the porous celluloid cannot carrying it. Is this what you mean?

 

On the other hand, "the area where the walls of the inner cap are least-ambered"... because in this zone there are not shellac. There are shellac at the end of cap, as you can see, for "fixing" inner cap at the end of cap.

 

The crystallization of the top of the cap is typical of light-colored celluloid in a thick section and has nothing to do with shellac, as it is observed in items that have no shellac on or near them.

--Daniel

 

It is not tipical beacuse lacks uniformity and is more amberized where are more shellac. The inner cap have shellac in the visible zone.

 

Light-colored as cause is not appropriate because the cap is broken yesterday -purchased full and intact on ebay 10 days ago- so this area has never been exposed to light until yesterday.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

A black sac can to carry amber color particles through microscopic feed cavity, but an amber dye mixed with alcohol in contact with the porous celluloid cannot carrying it. Is this what you mean?

 

This is what is referred to as a "straw man" fallacy. You fabricate a position that I do not express, then you attack that fabricated position.

 

No one has every argued that "a black sac can carry amber color particles;" you made that up. When you have to make up your adversaries' position in order to find something to attack, it shows just how weak your own position is, as in this case.

 

According to your hypothesis, the cap you show turned amber, crystallized, and disintegrated during the time when alcohol was evaporating after the shellac was applied -- so, a period of a few hours after the cap was assembled. Of course, this did not occur within a few hours of the cap being assembled, so your hypothesis is proven false. Again.

 

 

On the other hand, "the area where the walls of the inner cap are least-ambered"... because in this zone there are not shellac. There are shellac at the end of cap, as you can see, for "fixing" inner cap at the end of cap.

 

This logical fallacy is "begging the question." You are assuming that what you are seeing at the top of the cap is shellac, and you are then using this assumption to prove that what you are seeing at the top of the cap is shellac. Also called "circular reasoning." Invalid.

 

It is not tipical beacuse lacks uniformity and is more amberized where are more shellac. The inner cap have shellac in the visible zone.

 

Circular reasoning. See above.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Daniel, you dropped your hypothesis about ambering -not darkening which is not the case in this topic- by sac. You invent today a new hypothesis about ambering -not darkening- by light-colored that is refuted immediately because that area never was penetrated by light. I'm forward to watching your new hypothesis for next week.

 

Your "circular blindness" in the face of evidence prevented you answer beyond the mere rhetorical. There are intelligent readers who sometimes notified me of your mistakes. Let see:

 

Light-colored as cause -as you pointed- is not appropriate because the cap is broken yesterday -purchased full and intact on ebay (watchforpens ebayer) 10 days ago- so this area has never been exposed to light until yesterday. You've been "blind" in the face of this evidence and you have avoided trying to refute... simply because you have no arguments to refute.

 

In any case, despite light-colored is not cause in this last photo, I appreciate that you recognize this ambering is not a sac consequence.

 

Some will understand not being this ambering by sac as you well say, or the effect of light as I have demonstrated, is will be originated by another cause as I have said. Perhaps by amber shellac?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Daniel, your "circular blindness" in the face of evidence prevented you answer beyond the mere rhetorical. There are intelligent readers who sometimes notified me of your mistakes. Let see:

 

We are all still waiting for evidence of your hypothesis; none has been forthcoming. A reminder: you claim that as the alcohol in shellac evaporates, which occurs within the first few hours of the liquid shellac's application, large areas of the pen turn amber. But pens don't turn amber during the several hours after shellac is applied. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

Your reference to "intelligent readers" is fascinating. Can you post the names of those intelligent readers who believe your hypothesis about evaporating alcohol causing the ambering of pens is correct? Thanks.

 

Light-colored as cause -as you pointed- is not appropriate because the cap is broken yesterday -purchased full and intact on ebay (watchforpens ebayer) 10 days ago- so this area has never been exposed to light until yesterday. You've been blind in the face of this evidence

 

I don't understand what you wrote here. Please re-write it using different words.

 

Are you claiming that I said exposure to light caused the damage shown in your picture? Of course, I didn't say that.

 

Or, are you saying that I pointed out that exposure to light was not the cause, and that somehow makes me "blind in the face of this evidence"? If so, that makes no sense at all. Please explain.

 

In any case, despite light-colored is not cause in this last photo, I appreciate that you that you recognize this ambering is not a sac consequence.

 

You seem very confused about the decomposition of celluloid. Its typical decomposition mode is accompanied by a color change towards amber. That amber color is not due to the deposition of some foreign amber-colored substance. I suggest you do some research into this; I've already provided one reference for you.

 

Note the ambering in the buttons I showed. This is typical decomposition of thick sections of light-colored celluloid. There is no shellac involved. Your hypothesis fails.

 

Some will understand not being this ambering by sac as you well say, or the effect of light as I have demonstrated, is will be originated by another cause as I have said.

 

The material is, to a greater or lesser degree, inherently unstable; once celluloid "disease" sets in, it will progress with relative rapidity, and it will show the characteristic ambering and crystallization that your picture -- and my picture -- shows. But your hypothesis that evaporating alcohol transports particles of shellac, causing the crystallization and ambering, fails for the reasons given, especially in view of the fact that items with no shellac exhibit exactly this type of transformation, complete with ambering. QED.

 

--Daniel

Edited September 8, 2014 by kirchh