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The Ink Blame Game

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#1 PrintersDevil

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 00:21

So my Pelikan M600 developed a leak at the section between the barrel and the grip and I am going to send it to Chartpak/PelikanUSA for repair. 

Through fiddling of my own the sections broke apart.

I suspect a crack developed and I blame no one for this except my self.

 

When I discussed this problem with Chartpak/Pelikan the first question asked was what kind of ink did I use in the pen?

I said Pelikan/Diamine/Noodlers/Private Reserve.

Chartpak immediately blamed all non Pelikan inks as the cause of my problem.

 

In all fairness, I have heard the same thing from the Mont Blanc repair people as well.

Of course, I don't accept any of these explanations, but this old wives tale won't die out.

Especially in this day and age.

Why does this go on and on?

Joe



#2 Flounder

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 00:34

The section leak was your fault, for using non Pelikan ink in a Pelikan M600. The packaging clearly states you must only use Pelikan inks to prevent section leaks.



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#3 MisterBoll

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:04

Next time tell them "your brand only".

 

If they're going to be ridiculous...............



#4 watch_art

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:13

They need to use a better glue on the section to barrel join. 


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#5 FarmBoy

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:45

They mean they tested the pen with their ink and therefore can not guarentee how the pen will work with other ink brands. It is also marketing. It is not new, remember Parker's special ink for 51s...

Edited by FarmBoy, 06 May 2014 - 01:46.


#6 pajaro

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:07

I had the section separate from my M400 white tortoise.  They asked what ink I used, and when I included Noodler's, they went on at length about how it made the section come unglued, ignoring their ineffective adhesive.  When I told them the pen was secondhand, they told me they would not repair it under any circumstances.  I took some epoxy and reset the section permanently.  I am not going to buy any more Pelikans, new or used, but I do recommend them.  They are a good pen.  The business policies of Chartpak are designed to make you buy from an authorized dealer and to buy new.  Presumably they don't want any used pens taking away from their dealers' sales.  Makes sense if you are in business to sell new Pelikans.


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#7 pajaro

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:12

Further, Chartpak told me no adhesive was used to hold on the section.  Expert users here said there was no reason to take the section off, so I epoxied it.  It might have been a friction fit originally.


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#8 Dillo

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:41

Hi,

 

I believe they solvent weld the parts together instead of using adhesives. It's just an interesting way of doing it if you ask me. I had a Pelikan M300 with a section that came clean off the barrel. Many other companies seem to use something threaded and put in a sort of thread locker to keep the parts together unlike Pelikan. In any case, I don't think it would be ink that would cause the problem. I think it's mostly environmental stress related, but that, and most of this is a just a theory of mine and shouldn't be taken as gospel.

 

Dillon


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#9 Chi Town

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:36

WOW! This is all news to me! I have never heard of this happening, let alone the silly reasons given by Chartpak for the separations? I think tonight I will sleep outside of my cave that I must have been living in, to avoid hearing these ink issues? Now I have to watch out for my 3 Pelikans OR keep them on a shelf never to be used so that I don't have to talk with the folks at Chartpak when the sections fail.........My, my, my decisions, decisions, decisions......


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#10 Flounder

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 16:37

Next time tell them "your brand only".

 

 

I think this advice should be pinned, this thread is full of useful information. I do not see any mention of Pelikan's non proprietary ink caveats on their "Refills and Care" page.

 

This calls to mind a certain car manufacturer, one of whose models lots of people had problems with the rear screen washer popping off a connector, giving the contents of the boot/trunk a good soak instead. The problem was obvious on owner's forums; a very acute angled, optimistic friction fit connector where two rubber hoses meet. Not so according to the manufacturer. The idiot owners were to blame, for using screenwash other than the manufacturer's own.



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#11 Ernst Bitterman

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 22:31

You used GM gasoline in a BMW?!  Well, no wonder it went wrong.

 

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#12 Freddy

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 23:03

"Why does this go on and on?

Joe"

 

'Tis the vagaries and miseries of life.

 

 

Fred

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#13 Ron Z

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 00:54

Pen repair people see things that the average individual wouldn't even dream about.  Your reference is one or two pens.  Theirs is hundreds of pens, and for major manufacturers it's from a global client base.  They have research departments.  Owners have anecdotal evidence.  It's possible that they could be right. 

 

I believe that there is risk of damage from some inks based on pens and input from clients.  You are of course free to use whatever ink you want in your pen.  It's just not realistic or fair to expect the manufacturer to cover the damage that they believe is caused by not following their recommendations.


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#14 Flounder

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 01:13

It is realistic and fair, on the other hand, to expect the manufacturer to disclose those recommendations in some way that is not after the fact. That way the individual consumer is in with a chance of choosing whether to buy into this "no non-Pelikan inks" restriction or not.



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#15 PrintersDevil

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 01:38

The section leak was your fault, for using non Pelikan ink in a Pelikan M600. The packaging clearly states you must only use Pelikan inks to prevent section leaks.

 

A manufacturer should not hide behind his own ink bottles but sell a durable and well made product.

As far as I know, Diamine, Private Reserve, J Herbin to name a few only sell ink and not pens.

How could these companies have remained in business if their products caused all of the damage pen makers claim?

This is why I don't accept the pen manufacturer's explanations for such problems especially when they have not fully investigated defect in question.



#16 PrintersDevil

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 01:41

Hi,

 

I believe they solvent weld the parts together instead of using adhesives. It's just an interesting way of doing it if you ask me. I had a Pelikan M300 with a section that came clean off the barrel. Many other companies seem to use something threaded and put in a sort of thread locker to keep the parts together unlike Pelikan. In any case, I don't think it would be ink that would cause the problem. I think it's mostly environmental stress related, but that, and most of this is a just a theory of mine and shouldn't be taken as gospel.

 

Dillon

 

I like your environmental or even physical stress as the cause of the failure rather than the ink.

It seems like ink is always the villain in these cases.



#17 PrintersDevil

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 01:47

Pen repair people see things that the average individual wouldn't even dream about.  Your reference is one or two pens.  Theirs is hundreds of pens, and for major manufacturers it's from a global client base.  They have research departments.  Owners have anecdotal evidence.  It's possible that they could be right. 

 

I believe that there is risk of damage from some inks based on pens and input from clients.  You are of course free to use whatever ink you want in your pen.  It's just not realistic or fair to expect the manufacturer to cover the damage that they believe is caused by not following their recommendations.

 

A pen manufacturer cannot diagnose the cause of a pen failure when they have not inspected the unit in question therefore, stating that the various inks used in the pen caused the problem cannot be supported.

Just to clarify two points: the pen is about 10 years old and I did not expect Chartpak to repair my pen free of charge.

I will gladly send the pen in and pay for the repair.



#18 TimGirdler

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:47

There are inks which those who repair pens know to be caustic.  It's likely that Pelikan/Chartpak or [insert pen company here] knows this, too.  If you use one of the many more mild inks, it may not matter to them.  However, the more harsh and caustic inks might be the deal-breaker for them.  Pelikan does disclose the "Pelikan Ink Only" thing somewhere and it is their prerogative to service a pen, or not, based on the harshness of the ink.

 

It is an unfortunate situation, certainly, and I would be frustrated, too--and wildly so.

 

When people ask me about ink, I usually recommend (in this order): Waterman and Diamine.  I mention to those who ask that if you must use certain inks, it would be best to use them in modern cartridge/converter pens--because the parts are much easier to replace.

 

I've seen the damage first hand.  It's shocking to me that ink can do such damage, but it does.........

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#19 FarmBoy

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:03

Pen repair people see things that the average individual wouldn't even dream about.  Your reference is one or two pens.  Theirs is hundreds of pens, and for major manufacturers it's from a global client base.  They have research departments.  Owners have anecdotal evidence.  It's possible that they could be right. 
 
I believe that there is risk of damage from some inks based on pens and input from clients.  You are of course free to use whatever ink you want in your pen.  It's just not realistic or fair to expect the manufacturer to cover the damage that they believe is caused by not following their recommendations.

At this rate we will both be on the list...

#20 white_lotus

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:56

While I'm not an expert for sure, my guess is that in the old days many fountain pen users stuck with certain brands of ink. At least in the area I'm in, admittedly a rural area, people used mostly Waterman, Shaeffer Skrip, and Parker. I base that on the kinds of used, empty ink bottles that can be found in the antique shops in the area. Not totally scientific, but probably representative.

 

The production of those inks may have remained fairly consistent over long periods of time as corporate pressure to cut costs may not have been as strong. But also, inks known to be damaging to fountain pens such as traditional IG inks, were not used, and for permanent documents people used dip pens.

 

These days there are many small brands of inks on the market and even ink from foreign countries. Which may not have been so readily available in the past. And while there many be ink with ingredients that are harmful to pen components, it's not possible for the pen user to know what those are since such information is hidden in the proprietary ink formulas. And that make the mixing of inks even more hazardous and uncertain. While such mixtures may not create a sludge or sediment, their chemical interactions could perhaps be more damaging to pen components than the individual inks. And you wouldn't know about in until long afterwards since the damage may well be cumulative over time.

 

It would seem that the ink manufacturers should at least provide a bit more information to guide end users who are making choices about inks based on color, flow, interaction with paper (bleed through, show through), etc. as anyone can see in the various reviews. Perhaps information that a particular ink might be more suitable for a pen with converter rather than piston filler. 

 

Anyway, just some random, silly speculations, late at night...



#21 mhosea

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:48

Defects in design and workmanship have been common enough since the dawn of manufacturing.  I wish I had a dollar for every time something in this world that was supposed to have been glued or welded properly in a factory came undone prematurely because it wasn't done right or because the method used was prone to failure.  OTOH, it does seem to me that adhesive failure in a joint that is exposed to ink is one of the more plausible consequences of ink interactions.


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#22 OcalaFlGuy

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:25

Rick Propas is a major reseller of modern and vintage Pels and also does repairs on them.

 

The following is directly C/P from his PENguin website.

 

Please note: the use of Private Reserve or Noodlers' inks will void The PENguin warranty. I cannot be responsible for pens in which those inks have been used.

divider_fade.jpg

 

 

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#23 white_lotus

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 18:13

Another thing to consider is that Noodler's has 100+ inks listed for sale at the usual places. Kind of hard to phantom the array of chemicals arose the whole line. This isn't a knock on the brand, just a comment. Kind of hard for the manufacturer to know what the user is going to put in the pen. And pen parts are going to wear out over time, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for pen restorers and we wouldn't find sacs that have crumbled away with time (and perhaps due to the effects of that last fill of ink).

 

When I first got into fountain pens, it was amazing to me that there were so many inks. And I thought that any one of these could go into any pen. But now that I've learned a tiny bit more from the more knowledgeable folks here, I see that that is not the case.

 

It'd be amazing too if pen manufacturers made indestructible pens.

 

But on the OP's topic, the service center still should have taken the pen in for repair because as they could have then given a proper diagnosis and recommendation for repair, as well as cost.



#24 Flounder

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 18:41

The section leak was your fault, for using non Pelikan ink in a Pelikan M600. The packaging clearly states you must only use Pelikan inks to prevent section leaks.

 

 

 

A manufacturer should not hide behind his own ink bottles but sell a durable and well made product.

As far as I know, Diamine, Private Reserve, J Herbin to name a few only sell ink and not pens.

How could these companies have remained in business if their products caused all of the damage pen makers claim?

This is why I don't accept the pen manufacturer's explanations for such problems especially when they have not fully investigated defect in question.

 

Dude, I was being facetious, I share your sentiments. If Pelikan do make it known their pens are only compatible with Pelikan ink before point of sale, it's too well hidden for me to find.



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#25 mhosea

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 23:09

It'd be amazing too if pen manufacturers made indestructible pens.

 

Indestructible would be amazing, but it is well beyond what is needed here.  Most modern cartridge and twist-converter pens on the market are apparently suitable for use with a very wide variety of FP inks, maybe with almost all of them, save one or two.  Obviously that category (C/C) doesn't include most Pelikans.


Edited by mhosea, 07 May 2014 - 23:09.

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#26 white_lotus

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 00:08

I'd agree that c/c pens should be able to handle most modern inks. For some reason I thought the M series of Pelikans were piston fillers. Guess I was wrong.



#27 mhosea

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:25

I'd agree that c/c pens should be able to handle most modern inks. For some reason I thought the M series of Pelikans were piston fillers. Guess I was wrong.

 

They are, and you were not wrong, but the thread is not constrained to Pelikan piston fillers just because that was the OP's specific case, or so I thought.  Piston fillers tend to be quite robust as well, but whereas one tends to just toss a cartridge converter that binds up or leaks, the piston filler needs repair work, perhaps new seals, that kind of thing, and usually it's a bit more work to flush them, so inks that tend to clog or are hard to clean out can be a pain.


Edited by mhosea, 08 May 2014 - 02:31.

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#28 pajaro

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:34

I'd agree that c/c pens should be able to handle most modern inks. For some reason I thought the M series of Pelikans were piston fillers. Guess I was wrong.

 

I used Parker black Quink exclusively in my Parker Sonnets.  The ink flow got worse and worse.  I finally took out the nibs from each of them in turn, washed the nib and feed, cleaned out the section, and dried each.  After doing about 25 of them I put most away and inked one, with Sheaffer's blue black.  A week and a half later it's still writing well.  I always used to use Sheaffer's blue black back in the day, and never had a problem with it.  No problems with Montblanc inks, and Noodler's black eel is also good.

 

I used to hate Pelikan inks, because I tried their blue black on the recommendation of someone from Fahrney's pen store.  It looked totally washed out.  I suspect that if I had left the ink, the iron gall might have darkened it.  Well, another reason to avoid Pelikan.  Still have M200s and M400s.  The M640 has to go.  But I'm lazy.


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#29 Ron Z

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:37

I used Parker black Quink exclusively in my Parker Sonnets.....

 

Your experience mirrors what Richard and I have found, that is, that black Parker Quink causes flow problems.  We've had cases where a pen simply will not write with black Quink, but will write great with any other ink.  One of the few cases of a pen manufacturer's ink causes problems.


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#30 PrintersDevil

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:24

 

 

 

Dude, I was being facetious, I share your sentiments. If Pelikan do make it known their pens are only compatible with Pelikan ink before point of sale, it's too well hidden for me to find.

 

Ok, I understand.

Was a little confused.

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