Grip Advice / Tired Forearm?

[qwpoi]

Hi all, how does my grip look? I ask because I've managed to relax my fingers away from the death grip, but now my forearm muscles keep getting tired. are these things that just need to be built up, or am i doing something wrong?

 

[qwpoi]

also....is this exercise supposed to be done quickly, slowly, or in-between?

 

[edit: i know my lines are horribly crooked...]

Edited April 10, 2014 by qwpoi

[willard]

Hello qwpoi,

 

I'm not an expert in ergonomics, but your grip seems fine. Your writing angle seems a bit high, but that should mainly influence the way you attack the paper with the nib. Speaking of which, looking at your exercise, unless you have a very cheap paper and/or a broad nib, it may look like you are pressing your nib on the paper as you write. If that's the case, then the pressure may be causing your muscle tension, as the pen is supposed to write almost by its own weight.

 

Also, please note that the writing effort should be distributed along all the arm, and ideally reflect on all the posture. For that to happen, you need to relax harder, as Ian Sinclair says in his Tai Chi demos on YouTube. That is, when I feel that my writing gets tense, I try to relax my shoulder, my elbow, et cetera, This relaxation may be transformed into some kind of spiritual exercise by relaxing the neck, the eyebrows, down to the toes.

 

Smiling helps too!

Edited April 10, 2014 by willard

[The penner]

I tried to write with the same grip you are using in the photo. My forearm got tired also. Reverting back to my natural grip felt better. Try this: hold your pen so that it makes a much smaller angle with your thumb, i.e, more parallel. That padded region of your hand will act like a cushion for the weight of the back of the pen. Give it a go and see if you like it!

[Mickey]

Your grip is not exactly bad, but as other have noted the pen angle is a bit steep. (In my hand, the pen barrel passes right over the 1st knuckle. Yours passes above.) There are couple of ways of fixing this. Try them singly and in combination. First, straighten your forefinger and thumb a bit. How much, I can't say. Everyone's hands are different. (My thumb is nearly straight.) Second, think more of locking the pen in the space created between the thumb and first 2 fingers, rather than gripping the pen barrel. Third, roll your hand and wrist clockwise so you can see the knuckles of the first 3 fingers; in other words make your wrist closer to parallel with the desk. Remember to curl the last two fingers gently into your palm.

 

I suspect the fatigue comes from still trying to move the pen solely with your fingers. (I'm going to steal this hint.) Rest your forearm on the desk (but don't lean on it). With your palm flat, brush small circles with your hand. Those are the muscles which should animate the pen. Now, pick up the pen and do the exercise in post 1 with the muscles you just discovered. Sketch the lines quickly. Stroke, don't draw. Let the lines fall where they will. Observe. Eventually you will know where they will fall.

[spotted and speckled]

Your thumb looks tense to me in the picture. Is it comfortable? Concentrate on relaxing. I could never get comfortable AND relaxed with the VP. Is it the same with all pens?

 

Your angle is high, but ok. (Greg Minuskin retips at that angle, FWIW) The pen resting on the knuckle is also ok.

 

Have you read any Kate Gladstone, or anything off Iampeth website? Lot s of good stuff there!

[proton007]

I agree with Mickey.

Your pen is held at too high an angle, and because it's not resting on the web between your thumb and index finger it's putting strain on your fingers and eventually the forearm.

 

The point is that your fingers should 'gently' hold the pen, keep it from moving, and provide very small movements. The larger part of the movement is done by the forearm.

 

I also see that you're resting your hand on the wrist. It restricts the movement of the forearm, and will put some additional burden on your fingers to add in that extra movement. Take a look at the Palmer method, and the way the pen is to be held : http://palmermethod.com/introductory/lesson-3/

Edited April 11, 2014 by proton007

[qwpoi]

wow thanks for all the advice! one question: exactly how parallel should the wrist be to the desk? i couldn't tell from the iampeth pictures whether the wrist was lying flat or if there was still a bit of a tilt to the wrist, but just smaller than what i was doing. the first picture is with a bit of a tilt, the second is with me making my wrist as flat as possible against the desk....thanks again everyone!!

 

 

 

[proton007]

^^

 

If you take a look at the Palmer lesson 3, there's a diagram depicting the arm and pen angle:

 

http://palmermethod.com/wp-content/uploads/No26to27.jpg

 

Rotating your wrist will change the angle the pen makes with the lines on paper. As your wrist goes from being close to perpendicular to the paper to parallel, your pen will rotate from being perpendicular to the lines, to acquiring a slant.

Since you're left handed, I think you can't hold the pen at too low an angle, because then it'll tilt towards the left (an angle opposite to the required slope than towards it).

So, my advice would be to keep your hand neutral, perpendicular to the lines.

Edited April 11, 2014 by proton007

[Mickey]

wow thanks for all the advice! one question: exactly how parallel should the wrist be to the desk? i couldn't tell from the iampeth pictures whether the wrist was lying flat or if there was still a bit of a tilt to the wrist, but just smaller than what i was doing. the first picture is with a bit of a tilt, the second is with me making my wrist as flat as possible against the desk....thanks again everyone!!

 

 

photo 1.JPG

 

photo 2.JPG

 

Okay, the biggest problem I see is that you are gripping the pen too close to its end, and it's possible the pen in the photo is too short for you unposted. This might well be the root of the problem. A too short pen can contribute to all sorts of bad habits. I have large hands, and all but the longest pens come up short for me. Otherwise, the top photo is not bad. (You have gone too far in the second photo.) There is a fair range of 'correct' wrist angles, from 0 to 45 degrees. It really depends on the size and proportions of your hand.

[caliken]

I'm not qualified to say why you are finding your writing uncomfortable, but your hand position in the first photo in post #8 looks just about right to me.

 

Excluding flexible dip nibs, I believe that most nibs work best when the angle of pen to paper is about 45 degrees.

 

Flexible nibs are the exception as they have to be held at a lower angle to avoid snagging on hairline upstrokes. The Oblique penholder with an adjustable flange, takes care of this and as a result, I am able to use the same grip for all types of writing and with all styles of script.

 

They may look different because the angles of the photos is slightly different, but the handholds shown here, are the same. I think that, while it's possible to write with the shaft of the pen down in the web of the hand, fine control is more difficult........just my opinion.

 

Edited April 11, 2014 by Ken Fraser

[qwpoi]

thanks everyone! my handwriting is now all wonky looking in the correct position. lots of practice to do, i guess!

[Guest Ray Cornett]

Strengthen your hand and forearm muscles. Baoding balls or even golf balls(my preference)work wonders. 5 minutes a couple times a day.

[ac12]

Practice slowly.

And try to do the exercises to gain control of the muscles.

The first time you do something different, it is UGLY, because your muscles don't know what to do, and are uncoordinated.

Things get better as you gain control of the muscles, and they learn to do things they never did before.

 

The other thing is there are different methods to holding the pen.

1 - There is a version of the tripod grip that puts your left hand thumb at about 130 and your pointing finger at about 1030, and the middle finger below at about 600.

2 - The overhand grip puts the pointing finger at 1200, the thumb at about 430 and the middle finger at about 830. This grip will NOT work with the Lamy Safari, as its grip is designed for the first method.

 

There are others, but these two and their variants seem to be quite common.

I use #1 for most of my pens.

But I use #2 when I use my dip pens, because I use my pointing finger to help control the downforce that I apply to the pen to flex the nib.

[Mickey]

Practice slowly.

And try to do the exercises to gain control of the muscles.

The first time you do something different, it is UGLY, because your muscles don't know what to do, and are uncoordinated.

Things get better as you gain control of the muscles, and they learn to do things they never did before.

 

The other thing is there are different methods to holding the pen.

1 - There is a version of the tripod grip that puts your left hand thumb at about 130 and your pointing finger at about 1030, and the middle finger below at about 600.

2 - The overhand grip puts the pointing finger at 1200, the thumb at about 430 and the middle finger at about 830. This grip will NOT work with the Lamy Safari, as its grip is designed for the first method.

 

There are others, but these two and their variants seem to be quite common.

I use #1 for most of my pens.

But I use #2 when I use my dip pens, because I use my pointing finger to help control the downforce that I apply to the pen to flex the nib.

 

I don't change grips for dips, but, with straight holders (or pens) with flexible nibs, I keep the wrist (and hand) nearly parallel to the desk. This lowers the pen angle and turns the pen tip about 30 to the right (clockwise rotation), allowing for a more normal paper position.

 

I also don't apply shades with the fingers, but rather with the hand (bending or rolling the wrist). The fingers remain relatively quiet.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Mickey

[Arabit]

Hello all, just a question on my tripod grip. After 45 minutes of practicing making thick and thin lines using a Wahl Eversharp flex pen, my index finger gets tired. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?

[Mickey]

Hello all, just a question on my tripod grip. After 45 minutes of practicing making thick and thin lines using a Wahl Eversharp flex pen, my index finger gets tired. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?

 

Yes, you're doing something wrong. The shade (flex) is applied by the entire hand (by bending and or rolling the wrist), not by pressing with the index finger. With a relatively stiff nib, like most (ugh) 'flex pens' (or vintage semi-flex) have, the fingers alone are not strong enough to repeatedly bend the nib. Fatigue and (eventually) RSI will occur. The first two fingers and thumb simply anchor the pen in the hand. The hand (and arm) do the hard work.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Mickey

[Arabit]

Thank you Mickey!

[Mickey]

You're welcome. This is fairly subtle. I've read one very respected teacher of Spencerian suggest that the shade was applied by squeezing the fingers, but I'm not sure if he wasn't describing his perception rather than what he actually did. The grip will firm up naturally when one shades, but whether the squeeze leads the activity or is simply a response to the hand movement is open to discussion.

[Tasmith]

I'm not qualified to say why you are finding your writing uncomfortable, but your hand position in the first photo in post #8 looks just about right to me.

 

Excluding flexible dip nibs, I believe that most nibs work best when the angle of pen to paper is about 45 degrees.

 

Flexible nibs are the exception as they have to be held at a lower angle to avoid snagging on hairline upstrokes. The Oblique penholder with an adjustable flange, takes care of this and as a result, I am able to use the same grip for all types of writing and with all styles of script.

 

They may look different because the angles of the photos is slightly different, but the handholds shown here, are the same. I think that, while it's possible to write with the shaft of the pen down in the web of the hand, fine control is more difficult........just my opinion.

 

I was having trouble keeping my pen at a 45 degree angle for italic with the pen resting in the web of my hand. Changing my handhold to Ken's fixed that problem instantly. Thank you Ken!