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P51. Collector And Feed Alignment. Clarification Needed


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#1 Mcicool

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:46

Can anyone give me a clear explanation why is it recommended that P51 feed should be aligned with the wider channel of collector?

 

Thank you.



#2 Paul80

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:44

Hi

 

I have always read and thus always done the nib aligned with the wider of the two feed slots.

 

Paul



#3 Mcicool

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:48

Ye, i've always read and done aswell :) I just wanna know the reason of it and how it works.



#4 Lemur

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:24

The reason is (probably) that the collector has the air channel (wider) on the upper side and the ink channel on the down side.

 

See page 174 in "Parker Vacumatic" by G Parker, D Shepherd & D Zazove,



#5 TimGirdler

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:25

The wider channel acts as a bit of a carburetor (mixing air and, in this case, ink).  It allows for much better flow of ink through the pen and, in general, provides a much greater writing experience.  Also, behind both the wider and the narrower channels on the collector are slits, the bottom one being held open in the Vacs by a hard rubber plug, and in the Aeros by a diamond-shaped score, these slits feed, as it were, the collector.  It's better if the ink flows from those slits to the collector and the wide feed channel allows a greater flow which will, in turn, feed the feed and the nib with ink.

 

Ron and Richard might explain it differently, but this is how I explain it.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#6 FarmBoy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 13:07

Someone with access to the Parker data on this subject should post said information here.

#7 Mcicool

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 14:34

Thanks Tim, but i am still a bit confused about this subject.. Would be nice to hear more opinions.



#8 OcalaFlGuy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 14:53

Someone with access to the Parker data on this subject should post said information here.

+Pi!

 

From what I gather, they made and sold Millions of 51's thinking it Didn't matter how they were orientated. I doubt the initial placement decision was completely random, they must have had at least Some Initial data that the placement didn't matter. 

 

WHEN they changed the paperwork on it, how much was that prioritized? Were they directed to reorientate Every pen they opened up, even for non flow related reasons or just a general start doing it this way on subsequent repairs?

 

[EDIT] The original test pens had flow issues. Ernesto states there were problems with flooded collectors From The Very Start of production. It certainly appears to me that the collector arraignment would have been one of the areas First "over studied" for correctness in theory and practice.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl


Edited by OcalaFlGuy, 09 April 2014 - 15:10.


#9 TimGirdler

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 17:41

According to several... Parker originally told workers to orient the wide channel at 12:00. Later service bulletins said it didn't matter.

Everyone I've talked to and many poorly writing pens that have been reoriented and thus fixed tell me it does matter--and greatly so.

Remember also: the early "51"s had feeds without channels. That was changed for the better and channels were added. Parker did make adjustments as they went. Some were good, even great. Some were wrong and restoration experiences prove it over and over again.

Blessings,

Tim

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#10 pajaro

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 17:59

So, if you were to have some pens like some of mine, that have too much flow, this could be rectified by looking under the hood and disorienting the feed channels?


"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
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#11 OcalaFlGuy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:16

Someone with access to the Parker data on this subject should post said information here.

 

 

According to several... Parker originally told workers to orient the wide channel at 12:00. Later service bulletins said it didn't matter.

Blessings,

Tim

 

I snarfled this from Ernst's site.

 

Collector.JPG

 

Perhaps our Brother Back Bacon from the Great White North ;)  can avail us of where he got this and it's date?

 

At least HERE, if they didn't know the pen Wrote better this way, they knew it at least LOOKED better in images.

 

I ran Dirck's image through Google images and didn't get any more hits than his.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl



#12 Flounder

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:31

So, if you were to have some pens like some of mine, that have too much flow, this could be rectified by looking under the hood and disorienting the feed channels?

 

Not in my experience, unfortunately. Shame because it would be so much less messy!


Edited by Flounder, 09 April 2014 - 18:31.


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#13 TimGirdler

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:38

So, if you were to have some pens like some of mine, that have too much flow, this could be rectified by looking under the hood and disorienting the feed channels?


I wouldn't disorient the feed channels.

In my experience, too-wet or blotting pens have issues caused by something other than the collector.

There are many factors in play on any given pen--the health of the sac or diaphragm, the fit of the collector into the barrel or connector, the health of the connector itself, and even the manner in which the pen is filled from the bottle. All of these can play a role individually or in conjunction with each other.

Blessings,

Tim

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#14 pajaro

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:47

I wouldn't disorient the feed channels.

In my experience, too-wet or blotting pens have issues caused by something other than the collector.

There are many factors in play on any given pen--the health of the sac or diaphragm, the fit of the collector into the barrel or connector, the health of the connector itself, and even the manner in which the pen is filled from the bottle. All of these can play a role individually or in conjunction with each other.

Blessings,

Tim

 

OK.  I have a couple where previous owner spread the tines much too wide, and I couldn't get them back.  Too bad, because one was a broad nib.  I will seek a replacement nib instead, and just check the channel alignment to make sure it's correct.


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#15 OcalaFlGuy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:56

On those missgapped nibs why don't you send them to Tim, that should be a relatively cheap, easy fix.

 

Bruce in Ocala Fl



#16 Mcicool

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:23

So we accept the feed and collector alignment as fact according to old manuals and the experience only? I am looking for deep explanation about how the ink flow works, what is the wide channel for, what is the thin channel for. I just wanna fully understand the way of how ink gets to the nib.

 

Thank you.



#17 Ron Z

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 13:20

Tim is correct - the later Parker repair manuals say that their research department has concluded that the position of the slit has no impact on the flow of the pen.  They may be correct given the the interplay of feed against the nib, width of the slit and how tight the hood is against the nib.  Adjusting any or all of these will effect how the pen writes, and changing one can stop a pen from leaking into the cap.  After having done literally hundreds of these pens I can say, as does Richard, that having the wide slit on top as recommended early on, seems to make a difference in how the pen writes.  Why, I can't tell you.

 

The collector is there to catch excess ink, which is trapped in between the fins and then released (or simply flows) to the feed and then the nib.  It is not part of the regular flow as such except when there is more ink released from the reservoir than is needed for writing.  The end of the feed is a snug fit down in the collector all the way around.  The nib itself is a snug fit down in the collector as well.  The collector itself is a snug fit in the connector/nipple all of the way around except for two slits 180 degrees apart from each other, but one of the fine slits usually has a small rubber plug that is used to hold one slit open when it is fit into the connector/nipple.  How the ink flows to the nib I can't tell you - except that the breather tube plays no part because the open end is above the level of the ink when writing.*  The feed in fountain pens has to have some way to allow air back into the pen so that you don't get vacuum that would stop the flow of ink to the nib.  This is usually on the top of the feed, often in the form of a wider slot than the ink channel, though it's not so obvious on some modern feeds.  Therefore it makes sense to put the wider channel on top.

 

Having said that, changing the position is likely to make little difference in a pen that writes too wet or floods.  There are at least 3 other variables that are more likely to be the cause, and that if adjusted properly will give the desired flow.  Start with the set of the feed against the nib, then check that the tines are spaced properly, and then IF NEEDED adjust the fit of the tip of the hood against the nib.  The last item is not needed very often as adjusting the tine spacing and set of the feed is usually sufficient.  With a Vac filled pen, you also need to be sure that the diaphragm is good and installed properly.  With ANY vintage pen that leaks, the first thing to check is that the sac/diaphragm is good.  It only takes a pin hole to make the pen a wet writer, or to have it flood.  Replacing the sac and securing it properly with shellac to a clean sac nipple often cures the problem.

 

 

*Interesting side note - some of the 51 feeds have no slit at all in them, and the pens write quite well without it, begging the question as to whether they were needed at all in the first place on this pen. 


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#18 Mcicool

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:24

Thank you Ron! Your reply is something i've created this topic for :)

And thanks to all others  for giving tips!