How To Buy A True Ef Nib For An Al-Star?

[knarflj]

I've had both a Safari and and Al-Star for a few years now, both (theoretically) with EF nibs. I've always known that the Safari nib was smoother and wrote a finer line than the Al-Star, but not until last night when I happened to write with the same ink in both pens did I realize just how great the difference in line width was.

 

Now that I know what's going on, I'd like to get a nib for the Al-Star that writes a true EF line. Is there some way to ensure the correct line width when purchasing, or are Lamy nibs really just a (bleep) shoot? And is there something useful I could do with the old nib if I replace it?

[watch_art]

Get one ground to your preference. There are a few of us who do this work.

[Koyote]

I've had both a Safari and and Al-Star for a few years now, both (theoretically) with EF nibs. I've always known that the Safari nib was smoother and wrote a finer line than the Al-Star, but not until last night when I happened to write with the same ink in both pens did I realize just how great the difference in line width was.

 

Now that I know what's going on, I'd like to get a nib for the Al-Star that writes a true EF line. Is there some way to ensure the correct line width when purchasing, or are Lamy nibs really just a (bleep) shoot? And is there something useful I could do with the old nib if I replace it?

 

That may be true for your nibs, but it is because of variability in production -- it is not systematic.

 

Another option is to buy a couple more nibs - they're cheap - and hope to get a true xf. I have an xf on a Safari and it is a true xf, in my opinion.

[ac12]

As Koyote said manufactured to X +/-Y.

Example (numbers are somewhat fabricated, as I do not know the manufacturing specs/tolerance)

Manufactured XF to a tip width of 0.024 inch +/- .004 = a range of .020 to .028 inch.

Manufactured F to a tip width of 0.030 inch +/- .004 = a range of .026 to .034 inch.

In this scenario, you could very well have a wide XF that is wider than a narrow F.

 

While not a valid sample size, I did measure 3 Lamy F nibs, and all three measured the same 0.028 inch width.

 

Having said this, what is a true XF?

There is no real definition of a true XF. A size such as XF is defined by each manufacturer as X +/-Y. And different manufacturers could use different definitions of a size.

Example, I measured (with a dial caliper) the tip width of 3 pens; Pilot Metro (M), Old Parker (M), Lamy (F). All three measured approximately 0.028 inch width. So while they measure the same, they are sized different.

[knarflj]

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

Get one ground to your preference. There are a few of us who do this work.

 

I'm thinking about this. Could that "fat" EF be turned into, say, a fine cursive italic or something like that? I might have to save up a little, but it might be worth it. And how does one go about deciding where to have this done? A quick web search turned up a whole lot of options.

 

 

That may be true for your nibs, but it is because of variability in production -- it is not systematic.

 

Another option is to buy a couple more nibs - they're cheap - and hope to get a true xf. I have an xf on a Safari and it is a true xf, in my opinion.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the difference would be true across the models, just that of the two particular nibs I have, the one on the Safari has always written a nice, consistent, fine line with just about any ink and paper I throw at it, while the Al-Star's has always been more finicky about ink, never quite as smooth, and written a much fatter line. I'm quite ready to believe that someone out there can tell exactly the opposite story.

 

And I'm afraid that although the nibs are cheap, I have to save up even for cheap ones, so buying a bunch on spec is not on the cards right now. (Yes, I know I should have fallen in love with something other than fountain pens!)

 

Having said this, what is a true XF?

There is no real definition of a true XF. A size such as XF is defined by each manufacturer as X +/-Y. And different manufacturers could use different definitions of a size.

Example, I measured (with a dial caliper) the tip width of 3 pens; Pilot Metro (M), Old Parker (M), Lamy (F). All three measured approximately 0.028 inch width. So while they measure the same, they are sized different.

 

Okay, I guess instead of saying "I want a true extra-fine" I need to say, "I want one that writes like the other one!"

[displacermoose]

While you certainly could send your nib off, you could also re-grind it yourself. Much cheaper and a lot of fun. If you make a hash of it you can still buy 2 nibs, maybe more, with the money you would pay someone else. I got my start with this article

 

http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/aboutpens/ludwig-tan.html

 

There are also tons of videos on youtube. It takes a bit of patience, but is a skill worth picking up, especially if you're strapped for cash.

[jar]

I have a fair size assortment of pens. No two write the same; thank god.

[knarflj]

Thanks for that link, displacermoose. I'm not sure I'm quite brave enough to take that on right now, but I've filed the link for future reference, since it does look like fun, and I'm sure it must be very satisfying.

 

For time being, I think I'll work on just trying to get the nib in focus through a loupe. (Never could see properly through the microscope in biology class, either.) Once I've got that down, maybe I can take on something a little more ambitious.

[PDW]

Some of the nibs on the Chinese "Lamys" look finer than the original, although I haven't inked one yet. Cheap enough to take a chance on one?

 

[starts ducking and weaving for when the brickbats come ...]

[nakiana]

The Safari and the Al-Star take the exact same nib, so the model of pen should have nothing to do with the two pens being different models.

 

You mentioned that the Al-Star has been a bit more finicky and not as smooth - have you given the feed a good cleaning, flossed the nib, and given the tip a bit of a smoothing/polish? That won't make your pen write any finer, but might resolve some of the other issues.

[Inkysloth]

You could try switching your nibs over, put the Al-Star EF on the Safari & vice versa. Then see how they behave, just to check if is the nib and not the feed affecting the flow.

[KBeezie]

What's a "True EF" anyways? Not like there's one universal standard, one man's fine is another's extra fine (or another's extra extra...)

[knarflj]

Some of the nibs on the Chinese "Lamys" look finer than the original, although I haven't inked one yet. Cheap enough to take a chance on one?

 

[starts ducking and weaving for when the brickbats come ...]

 

Ha! No brickbats (don't know enough about Chinese pens even to know why they might be called for!). The Safari's actually just about the perfect "fine" for my everyday use. Thanks for the idea, though.

 

 

 

 

You mentioned that the Al-Star has been a bit more finicky and not as smooth - have you given the feed a good cleaning, flossed the nib, and given the tip a bit of a smoothing/polish? That won't make your pen write any finer, but might resolve some of the other issues.

 

Nakiana, to be honest, although I've been using fountain pens regularly for almost twenty years now, I've only recently started to figure out what terms like "flossing" and "smoothing" mean, and I still don't own any of the tools I'd need except a loupe (just received on my last birthday, and still figuring out the best way to use it!). One of these days I'll get the tools (and the nerve!) to try some of those tricks for myself.

 

You could try switching your nibs over, put the Al-Star EF on the Safari & vice versa. Then see how they behave, just to check if is the nib and not the feed affecting the flow.

 

I did that a day or two ago, Inkysloth. Haven't inked up the Safari since, but the Al-Star is writing a much finer line now than it did before, and smoothly with the only ink I've so far used.

 

What's a "True EF" anyways? Not like there's one universal standard, one man's fine is another's extra fine (or another's extra extra...)

 

Yes, maybe I should have found a better way to say that. I know that "fine" or "extra fine" varies with the manufacturer, but I (perhaps wrongly) had expected them to be consistent within a single manufacturer's line, and especially within a single line of pens - or as close to the same line as the Safari and Al-Star.

 

I have always tended to think of the line my Safari lays down as the standard for Lamy EF, partly, I suppose, because I've had the Safari a lot longer than the Al-Star (no, not very rational, I know!), and partly because when I killed the original F nib that the Safari came with (dropped it uncapped off the deck), and discovered that I could replace it with an EF, the replacement wrote a line just about as much finer than the original as I'd expected - so I think of that as a "true Lamy EF". Sorry if that was too wordy, but maybe it will help clarify what I was asking. The line the Safari EF lays down works just about perfectly with my usual handwriting for everyday use, so it would be nice to have another as close to it as possible.

 

Thanks to Koyote's timely reminder about the Lamy closeout at isellpens, I have three just-arrived EF nibs sitting on my desk waiting for me to get some real work done so that I can see whether one of them will be what I'm looking for.

[KBeezie]

Since it was posted in another thread, probably print this out and see which stroke width you desire.

http://www.richardspens.com/pdf/strokewidths.pdf

 

I did this against most of my pens, and my newest one (which seems to be a 4XF by western standards)

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/inkjet_binder_apr7.jpg

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/wancher_makie/write.jpg

[Inkysloth]

Since it was posted in another thread, probably print this out and see which stroke width you desire.

http://www.richardspens.com/pdf/strokewidths.pdf

 

I did this against most of my pens, and my newest one (which seems to be a 4XF by western standards)

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/inkjet_binder_apr7.jpg

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/wancher_makie/write.jpg

I don't want to be needlessly picky, but the 0.1mm line at the top looks a lot wider than 1/100 the width of the 1cm scale given at the top of the diagram. Even with an eyeball, the 0.5mm line is clearly wider than 1/20 of a cm on that scale.

[KBeezie]

I don't want to be needlessly picky, but the 0.1mm line at the top looks a lot wider than 1/100 the width of the 1cm scale given at the top of the diagram. Even with an eyeball, the 0.5mm line is clearly wider than 1/20 of a cm on that scale.

Can always print it yourself and measure the scale on the bottom. If it's wider then it's likely due to feathering but was printed at extra fine (slooooow) printing so shouldn't be. Also I doubt you can make that judgment by eye of a picture on a computer monitor least enough so to that accurate. I'll probably dig up the thick high grade matte photo paper later and try again. But that's the pdf linked there with a scale on the bottom to check against.

[KBeezie]

Ps: the fact that most of the F and M western nibs are rather close if not spot on next to the guide seems to reinforce it's accuracy or least make it much more plausible.

 

Though I am curious why the 1.1 shows close to a 1.5 (other threads had a 1.1 that drew the same as his 1.5)

Edited April 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[Inkysloth]

Can always print it yourself and measure the scale on the bottom. If it's wider then it's likely due to feathering but was printed at extra fine (slooooow) printing so shouldn't be. Also I doubt you can make that judgment by eye of a picture on a computer monitor least enough so to that accurate. I'll probably dig up the thick high grade matte photo paper later and try again. But that's the pdf linked there with a scale on the bottom to check against.

I am wondering if I try printing it off on a laser printer it will be more accurately replicating the file than my computer screen...

 

Only one way to find out!

[KBeezie]

I am wondering if I try printing it off on a laser printer it will be more accurately replicating the file than my computer screen...

Only one way to find out!

Depends on the monitor and it's size, lower dpi (dots per inch) on a monitor screen depending on yours can appear larger or inaccurate since it's around 72 to 280 dpi depending on the monitor or device compared to printers that can do 1,200 or more onto some crisp injet paper if set at a slower fine-printing mode (and then there is of course the scanner).

 

I should have the original 1200 scan on my comp when I get home if it helps to see it almost microscopic on the screen, but it'll be about an hour or two. Since there is some minor feathering on typical injet that can play a part.

[KBeezie]

I am wondering if I try printing it off on a laser printer it will be more accurately replicating the file than my computer screen...

 

Only one way to find out!

 

Just got home with some Georgia Pacific "Super Premium" (28lb/105g weight, 97 brightness) inkjet paper.

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/gp_sp_stroke.jpg

 

And a Link to a 12000 DPI scan so you can blow it up on your screen to your heart's content.

 

1200 DPI Scan (just a little warning, it's about 10MB in size)

 

If I did a light stroke it was close to 0.1, but If I applied some pressure and slowly went accross, a slight hair over 0.2, the scan above just has the heavier stroke. (original 3200 DPI Scan of the light vs heavy stroke)

 

got some other pens on there too.

Edited April 9, 2014 by KBeezie