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De Atramentis Document Ink

de atramentis permanent ink bulletproof ink blue ink

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54 replies to this topic

#1 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 18:20

De Atramentis Dokument Tinte Blau / Document Ink Blue

 

Dear FPN friends,

 

This time an ink review of a very special ink.  De Atramentis Document Blue.

 

This ink is mentioned for doctors, lawyers etc. and for all who need a permanent ink for official Documents

 

To be qualified  as a document ink the ink has to meet certain standards. The standard in Europe is ISO 12757-2. This means that the ink has to be lightfast and may not be influenced by any outer influences.

 

To show you the resilience of the inks I have poured  several aggressive Fluids over it and…

Nothing happened. It is like if the ink was carved in stone…. Amazing…

 

It is not only bulletproof but also bombproof :) … I believe the ink even survives a nuclear accident or bomb attack (sorry for not testing that :) )

 

The ink is extremely lightfast. This is tested and certified with the Woll-Skala, wool scale in English.

This may sound peculiar, but isn’t that strange on second glance. In history quite often the same pigments used for Dyeing wool where used for inks as well.

 

The Woll-Skala reaches from 1 not lightfast over 5 extremely lightfast to 8 extreme lightfast. The ink “of course” is WS 8.

 

 

There are other resilient inks like inks based on iron gall or soot. The problem is that iron gall inks are very aggressive to both paper and nib. (the paper of old Dutch documents from the golden age are often eaten away partially by the ink) Both iron gall and soot inks may also clog the feed of your fountain pen.

 

 The De Atramentis inks are, as far as I understand, made with nano-particles. According to the noble  Fountain Pen King Sire Richard of Binderheart. Nano-particle inks can be safely used in Fountain pens.

 

 

 

I always have one Fountain Pen filled with the ink for work and flush it once every 2 months… No problem at all

 

 

 

 

 

 

Down here are  the technical specs (as suggested by Ann Finley 2007)

 

points 1-5 1 = Bad :( :  5=  Excellent :D

 

Fountain Pens:  Sheaffer  Targa F, “online Best Writer 0,8 Italic, Lamy Joy 1,5 Itaic  

Paper: Leonardo Ringbuch,average quality school note book made in Austria

Drying time:   Quicker than a camel’s bottom during a desert stroll :)  points 5

Flow: like a Hippie on LSD :)  points: 5

Wetness: very wet still drying fast points 5

Lubrication: very smooth points: 5

Bleeding:  medium on average quality paper with ‘normal’ nib points: 3

Shading: almost none points: 1

Waterproof: what do you think  points 5000000

Package:  bottles only Points: 3

Availabilty: EU Excellent    points: 5 USA/ASIA ???

Quality: Handmade everlasting points 5

 

 

A very good dark blue ink, it is a bit too dark for my taste. Funnily the dark blue obiously even darker but I find the colour nicer.

 

Shading is absent.

 

Verdict: a very nice bombproof ink for all official purposes. :D 

 

Next time; De Atramentis dark blue. I will ask Dr Jansen for some technical specs and ask him why the ink probably survives all mankind…

 

Have fun

 

DA DOK 2.jpg

da Dok 1.jpg

DA DOK 4.jpg

Da Dok 5.jpg


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


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#2 Philosoraptor

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 19:08

I was unaware this ink even existed, and thanks to you, it's now on my purchase list.  Thanks for the great review.


"No one can be a great thinker who does not recognize that as a thinker it is his first duty to follow his intellect to whatever conclusions it may lead. Truth gains more even by the errors of one who, with due study, and preparation, thinks for himself, than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think." -J.S. Mill, On Liberty

#3 Medsen Fey

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 19:22

Gee.., I hope Goulet's will get it.



#4 Pens by J. I. Schmidt

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 20:07

Wow, that's some neat ink!



#5 amberleadavis

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 20:25

Wow, that's sophisticated on the surface tension!  Do you think the ink is chalky?  So many of permanent inks have that chalky look that takes away from the over all vibrance.  Does it dry out in the nib?  I'm asking because this looks like a great blue for the "formal" stuff. Thank you for sharing.


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#6 gmax

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 21:04

Thanks for the review - I've been wondering about the appearance and performance of this ink!

 

It's also the first review I've seen that mentions LSD and Whisky  :)



#7 jsolares

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:09

How does it behave on really cheap paper?



#8 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:26

Gee.., I hope Goulet's will get it.


Hi medsen...

The sell it on amazon germany...
www.amazon.de

You can login with your normal account.
Which you can use for all amazon website.

But also from www.de-atramentis.com

It's the english website...
They have a lot of very nice inks so if you order a few bottles more, the shipping costs will be acceptable...

Greetz Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#9 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:30

Thanks for the review - I've been wondering about the appearance and performance of this ink!
 
It's also the first review I've seen that mentions LSD and Whisky  :)


Thanks...

Since your irish I will test the DA document ink dark blue with
A dramm of Connemare Irish malt whiskEy (Irish spelling :-) for you...

Cheers, slainte :-)

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#10 migo984

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:38

Another great review Peter. But what a waste of my favourite whisky...........

;) 


Edited by migo984, 01 April 2014 - 06:39.

Verba volant, scripta manent


#11 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:18

Another great review Peter. But what a waste of my favourite whisky...........
;) 


I only used a tiny drop...
It's one of my favourits too...
Tipp Benriarch... €30 A Speyside malt that IS smokey and peated ob theier own ceilings...

On topic the DA dark blue will be posted soon,tested with a drop of Connamaera Irish malt...
Willask dr Jansen for more technical info...

I will drink a dram of Talisker on you tonight

Cheers Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#12 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:25

How does it behave on really cheap paper?


Hola Jsolares.

It behaves quite well on very cheap paper. Though there is a tiny bit more of feathering and bleedthrough.
I will post a photo of that soon.

The paper I used was only €2.50 for about hudred sheets...
For Austrian srandards that's fairly cheap...

Hope this info was helpful.

Hasta la vista

Pedro

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#13 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:36

Hello JSolaris

 

as promised a scan of a line on very cheap thin paper.

 

As you can see there is a little feathering.

 

Also the bleedtrough is quite strong.

 

this is only the case on cheap paper especially with an 1.5 Italic nib (Which is a gusher)

 

On average (not high) quality paper feathering is almost absent. Bleedtrough is little and very acceptableDA Documetnt blue on cheap paper.jpg

 

Hasta la vista

 

Pedro :)


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#14 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:40

Wow, that's sophisticated on the surface tension!  Do you think the ink is chalky?  So many of permanent inks have that chalky look that takes away from the over all vibrance.  Does it dry out in the nib?  I'm asking because this looks like a great blue for the "formal" stuff. Thank you for sharing.

As far as I can judge it is not chalky.

 

It is a dark blue though and quite mat.

 

But I really like it.

 

I believe I like the DA Document dark blue even more... It is a Black BLue..

 

review will be posted soon...

 

Hope this was Helpful

 

Kinde regards Peter :)


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#15 lapis

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:48

Thanks for the nice review. I like this ink a lot, too. Bombproof but also well behaved. The De A "Document" inks are also available in dark blue and black. There was also Magenta and Turquoise but I think that these have been discontinued. Bear in mind that these all cost 18.00 Euros each (list price online) whereas most of the other, "normal" De As come in at 12.50.

 

Cheers


Life is too short to drink bad wine (Goethe)


#16 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:56

Hello Michael,

 

Thanks for the nice review. I like this ink a lot, too. Bombproof but also well behaved. The De A "Document" inks are also available in dark blue and black. There was also Magenta and Turquoise but I think that these have been discontinued. Bear in mind that these all cost 18.00 Euros each (list price online) whereas most of the other, "normal" De As come in at 12.50.

 

Cheers

 

Hello Michael,

 

thanks for the info. I will call Dr Jansen and ask him for the Magenta and Turquoise.

 

Since you helped me so nicely with the old and new names of Waterman inks....

 

Insteindruth asked me following question in my review of J Herbin 1670 Blue.

 

 

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Posted Today, 00:36

Is this the same as the 1670 Bleu Ocean? Because I found that ink to be disappointing. I had wanted a blue version of Rouge Hematite, and didn't get it, especially after all the hype of "a new 1670 ink". It was a nice enough color but didn't have the "pop" I was expecting.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Can you help us out here...

 

thanks for all the good work so far,

 

Freundlichem Gruß,

 

Peter

 


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#17 amberleadavis

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 19:14

Ooo.. now I want to see the Turquoise and Magenta.  And this one is not the dark blue?


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Want to get a special letter / gift from me, then create a Ghostly Avatar  

 

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#18 David_W

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:12

As lapis says, there definitely has been turquoise and magenta Document Ink (see, for example, this Australian web site), but I've not seen mention of them recently and they are not on the De Atramentis web site. Dr Jansen will be able to give a definitive answer, but I suspect there was limited interest in these colours and you might only be able to get some if you find a supplier who has some in stock. I'd guess that most people interested in permanent, waterproof and non-fading fountain pen ink are likely to be using it for business or other serious purposes, so will gravitate towards typical business colours of blue, blue black and black.

 

I realise that your professional background doesn't stop you making inventive use of colour, Amber (for what it's worth, I'm a law student). I wonder what ink you use for signatures in your professional capacity.

 

 

I had wondered if the turquoise and magenta Document Inks used cyan and magenta pigments intended for CMYK print processes, but cybaea's review of Document Ink turquoise shows it is not cyan. Turquoise wouldn't be the first word that came into my head for that shade. Maybe it's the lack of colour calibration or correction, but cybaea's scan looks more like what I'd expect of turquoise mixed with around 15% black ink (compare to the Goulet swab and writing sample for Lamy turquoise for my expectation of turquoise).

 

 

The other change in the Document Ink range is that recent production seemingly no longer claims ISO 12757-2 compliance - the English version of the De Atramentis site doesn't mention it at all, though the German version claims compliance with ISO 127757-2 (sic). I don't know whether this is because of the debatable application of a roller ball standard to fountain pen ink (not that that's stopped Montblanc claiming compliance for their relatively recent Permanent fountain pen inks), the cost of formal testing, some incompatibility between Dr Jansen's small scale production methods and ongoing compliance, or some other reason.

 

If you need formal compliance with the ISO standard, you probably need to talk to Dr Jansen and might have to go for the Montblanc inks.

 

 

I've been a blue black person since school days, when I used 1980s/1990s vintage Quink Blue Black with Solv-X in a couple of Parker 25s. As many reading these forums will be aware, Quink Blue Black was always a slightly different shade to many manufacturer's blue black inks, and had the annoying habit of changing colour a while after writing before fading. The Solv-X Quinks have been discontinued, and the new Quink Blue Black is a different ink entirely, with some posters claiming it's similar or identical to Waterman Blue Black. I found my bottle of the new Quink Blue Black very disappointing.

 

My ink needs have also changed. These days, health and practicality forces me to use the computer for most tasks. When I use a fountain pen I really want my ink to be waterproof, non-fading and well-behaved even on questionable paper (when I don't always have the option of using my preferred Rhodia paper).

 

 

I'm still on my first fill of Document Ink dark blue in my Lamy Accent (steel EF nib), but it's been everything I hoped for so far, including a blue black colour that I greatly prefer to the current Quink blue black. The feel of the pen on paper is good, despite the fine nib. I can see this being my 'go to' blue black for everyday carry use.

 

I felt the risk of using this ink in the Lamy was low. It's relatively easy to take the section, feed and nib apart for deep cleaning if a simple flush is inadequate and a new section / feed / M nib apparently costs less than £20 including shipping, which is the most likely components to be damaged by an ink disaster. The worst case would be requiring a new EF nib and Z26 converter as well as a section and feed, bringing the total repair bill to around £30, though I'd expect the nib to survive most disaster scenarios. I am not yet comfortable enough to put Document Ink in my modern Yard-O-Led Viceroy Grand (repair potentially expensive, though some people have found Yard-O-Led very reasonable for repairs that fall outside the lifetime warranty) or my Parker 25s (a design from around 40 years ago, with both Parker and the suppliers I am aware of having run out of NOS M nibs and feeds).

 

 

I can certainly see myself making a future purchase of Document Ink black for those occasions when only black is acceptable. I still have a half full bottle of Quick permanent black with Solv-X, but always found this a disappointing ink - as many have noted, it's rather grey and somewhat dry. I'll have to see whether I put Document Ink in my Yard-O-Led or whether I buy another Lamy pen.



#19 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:40

Ooo.. now I want to see the Turquoise and Magenta.  And this one is not the dark blue?

 

 

As lapis says, there definitely has been turquoise and magenta Document Ink (see, for example, this Australian web site), but I've not seen mention of them recently and they are not on the De Atramentis web site. Dr Jansen will be able to give a definitive answer, but I suspect there was limited interest in these colours and you might only be able to get some if you find a supplier who has some in stock. I'd guess that most people interested in permanent, waterproof and non-fading fountain pen ink are likely to be using it for business or other serious purposes, so will gravitate towards typical business colours of blue, blue black and black.

 

I realise that your professional background doesn't stop you making inventive use of colour, Amber (for what it's worth, I'm a law student). I wonder what ink you use for signatures in your professional capacity.

 

 

I had wondered if the turquoise and magenta Document Inks used cyan and magenta pigments intended for CMYK print processes, but cybaea's review of Document Ink turquoise shows it is not cyan. Turquoise wouldn't be the first word that came into my head for that shade. Maybe it's the lack of colour calibration or correction, but cybaea's scan looks more like what I'd expect of turquoise mixed with around 15% black ink (compare to the Goulet swab and writing sample for Lamy turquoise for my expectation of turquoise).

 

 

The other change in the Document Ink range is that recent production seemingly no longer claims ISO 12757-2 compliance - the English version of the De Atramentis site doesn't mention it at all, though the German version claims compliance with ISO 127757-2 (sic). I don't know whether this is because of the debatable application of a roller ball standard to fountain pen ink (not that that's stopped Montblanc claiming compliance for their relatively recent Permanent fountain pen inks), the cost of formal testing, some incompatibility between Dr Jansen's small scale production methods and ongoing compliance, or some other reason.

 

If you need formal compliance with the ISO standard, you probably need to talk to Dr Jansen and might have to go for the Montblanc inks.

 

 

I've been a blue black person since school days, when I used 1980s/1990s vintage Quink Blue Black with Solv-X in a couple of Parker 25s. As many reading these forums will be aware, Quink Blue Black was always a slightly different shade to many manufacturer's blue black inks, and had the annoying habit of changing colour a while after writing before fading. The Solv-X Quinks have been discontinued, and the new Quink Blue Black is a different ink entirely, with some posters claiming it's similar or identical to Waterman Blue Black. I found my bottle of the new Quink Blue Black very disappointing.

 

My ink needs have also changed. These days, health and practicality forces me to use the computer for most tasks. When I use a fountain pen I really want my ink to be waterproof, non-fading and well-behaved even on questionable paper (when I don't always have the option of using my preferred Rhodia paper).

 

 

I'm still on my first fill of Document Ink dark blue in my Lamy Accent (steel EF nib), but it's been everything I hoped for so far, including a blue black colour that I greatly prefer to the current Quink blue black. The feel of the pen on paper is good, despite the fine nib. I can see this being my 'go to' blue black for everyday carry use.

 

I felt the risk of using this ink in the Lamy was low. It's relatively easy to take the section, feed and nib apart for deep cleaning if a simple flush is inadequate and a new section / feed / M nib apparently costs less than £20 including shipping, which is the most likely components to be damaged by an ink disaster. The worst case would be requiring a new EF nib and Z26 converter as well as a section and feed, bringing the total repair bill to around £30, though I'd expect the nib to survive most disaster scenarios. I am not yet comfortable enough to put Document Ink in my modern Yard-O-Led Viceroy Grand (repair potentially expensive, though some people have found Yard-O-Led very reasonable for repairs that fall outside the lifetime warranty) or my Parker 25s (a design from around 40 years ago, with both Parker and the suppliers I am aware of having run out of NOS M nibs and feeds).

 

 

I can certainly see myself making a future purchase of Document Ink black for those occasions when only black is acceptable. I still have a half full bottle of Quick permanent black with Solv-X, but always found this a disappointing ink - as many have noted, it's rather grey and somewhat dry. I'll have to see whether I put Document Ink in my Yard-O-Led or whether I buy another Lamy pen.

 


Deart Amberleadavis, Dear Davis

 

davis you have a point there. But the ISO-certification is still on the Geran websie. I have noticed that the English website is not as complete as the German one is.

 

Magenta and turquoise you have a point there too David. In business these coulours are notm common.

I will ask Dr Jansen if:      1: These inks are still available as Document ink /If they willbe on request.

                                         2: Wheter the turquoise and Maganta non document inks are Waterproof.

 

To Mont Blanc ink

 

as far as I understood these inks may colg your pen. It seem to be base on Iron Gall which not only clogs your pen. the iron gall acid also may damage nibs (especially non gold nibs).

 

The De Atramenits inks are made wiht nano-particles which do not have these problems. Richard Binder minded this on his Website. You should regularly (every 3 months) flush your Fountain Pen though (according to Richar Binder).

 

I have used my D-A Documents inks for a year now in several Fountain Pens and have not had any problems.

 

If I have time I will call dr Jansen this afternoon. and ask him about the subjects mentioned above.

 

Hope i informed you well enough sofar. I will publish the answers from Dr.jansen as soon as possible.

 

 

Kindest regards,

 

Peter


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#20 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:41

Sorry for the typing errors. I was in a bit of a hurry :unsure:

 

Peter


Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: de atramentis, permanent ink, bulletproof ink, blue ink



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