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Faux Penman Sapphire #9


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#31 Sach

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:32

My experiments, which were done with BB+ cursive italics, showed that electric blue and majestic blue had the fabled 'sheen', and this PR ink was in this respect, far better than the DC supers how blue variant. I compared to my original 1997 bottle, and my replications mostly involved mixing PR electric blue, Majestic blue, and Cult pens Deep dark blue, which is also another diamine ink.

I'm going to try the sapphire blue mixing to see how this compares to my samples.

#32 Chrissy

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:00

When was your purchase?

The trouble I find is that I'm just not convinced that most of the ink in bottles being sold as PPS are actually genuine. The bottle I bought last year is no where near the original that I myself bought in around 1997. It would be very easy for me to decant the contents of the bottle and fill it up with PR electric blue or Diamine Majestic blue and sell it on for £50 or something. It's just too much of an economic temptation.
I heard an interview by Brian Goulet of Nathan Tardiff, of Noodler's fame, and he spoke of just this problem when trying this replication.

Sorry to ruin the fun guys, but we need to know that what we're actually using as a benchmark is verified as original, and seems like many comparisons are just chasing a mirage...

That's a depressing thought, and I don't know how proof of originality could be provided. However, I know for certain that the PP Emerald that I'm selling in the Classifieds is definitely legit


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#33 Sach

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 19:37

Here is a shot from the comparison that I made a few months ago. This is just one shot, but I also made detailed comparisons, starting with majestic blue and sequentially adding 1ml of PR electric blue to the mixtures, and in a separate test, also adding deep dark blue. The test was conducted with an M800 with an IB nib, to best bring out the sheen. The supposedly genuine recent purchase was just so very different, that I had to smell a rat in there somewhere.

 

PR electric blue is really really close to the original. i think Private reserve also developed this quite a number of years ago, when i feel more of the genuine stuff was actually around to mimic. As the years have gone on though, I think that the actual colour of "the stuff" that is being replicated is also evolving. Just my thoughts..Penman comparison.JPG



#34 Sach

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 18:37

Just tried this mix..

Absolutely No Resemblance to Parker Penman Sapphire!

I commend your efforts for trying, I'm just not convinced that what you're copying is the genuine article. PPS was super saturated. I mean more than anything else I've ever encountered. Love it or hate it, all sentiments were the result if this feature of that ink. This mix is washed out and no sheen at all. I tried with a Pel M800 IB nib.

#35 dcwaites

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 23:10

As I said, I have three different samples of PPS.

They are from three different, independent vendors, all NOS, sealed, and from three different countries.

All three are identical with each other, in both packaging and ink properties, and I bought them before the current price rise, at a time when there was no incentive to fake PPS.

 

To get three different fakes, from different countries, that were identical in both packaging and ink properties seems less probable than that I have three different, genuine lots of Parker Penman Sapphire.


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#36 Sach

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 23:24

As I said, I have three different samples of PPS.
They are from three different, independent vendors, all NOS, sealed, and from three different countries.
All three are identical with each other, in both packaging and ink properties, and I bought them before the current price rise, at a time when there was no incentive to fake PPS.
 
To get three different fakes, from different countries, that were identical in both packaging and ink properties seems less probable than that I have three different, genuine lots of Parker Penman Sapphire.


I'm curious as to why my mix had absolutely no resemblance to my bottle of PPS. It wasn't even remotely close...

#37 Bemo

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:41

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?



#38 carlos.q

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:03

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?


Good idea.

#39 EGdaTarHeel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:13

My mix is slightly off but it's due to the lack of accurate measuring implements. I was using a graduates cylinder which has the inherent challenge of the dyes of these saturated inks easily masking the lines of the cylinder. So I think my mix is off a bit. DC suggested using syringes as it's easier to get an accurate measurement. I plan on trying again.

As far as your variation, perhaps it's a variation in the ingredient ink. If we think about it, we are working to adjust the pigment mix of a given ink to match that of PPS. If one of the components is off, the final product will be off.

#40 Sach

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:55

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?


If you look a few posts up, I've put up a picture of my bottle of PPS from 1997, together with the new bottle that I purchased last year. I'll show these next to the mix from this topic. I used a syringe me measure all quantities, and used an IB nib in an M800 for the original comparison, as broader nibs would demonstrate sheen far better.

I'll show how this mix compares next to the original . I'm still not convinced about this triangulation idea. Let's face it, if you're online looking for an ink that was discontinued twelve years ago, it says something about your level of interest in fountain pens. If you're selling a bottle of PPS for $60 or something then you too clearly know something about ink and it's demand.
If you look over the last ten years or so, there have been inks that have developed as PPS replicas. Initially it was PR DC super show blue, then PR electric blue with its better sheen, and more recently Diamine majestic blue. If five years ago I wanted to deceive someone, I'd have done it with DC super show, few years later it would have been electric blurb, and more recently it would have been majestic blue. So the fact that bottles bought at around the same time on ebay appearing similar should be obvious.

PPS, PR electric blue and diamine majestic blue are most similar to each other. I'm sure that the new bottle that I bought last year is filled with DC super show blue, from my own comparisons.

#41 EGdaTarHeel

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:19

You have a good point about the substitutions. I think we can introduce another variable: time. Time even to an unopened bottle of PPS will change the qualities of the ink either through degradation of the dyes or evaporation of the liquids. I'd go as far as to postulate that if we looked at 3 or 4 bottles of PPS there may be some subtle differences.

I applaud DC and you as you are working to create a suitable substitute for PPS. Good science consists of disagreements such as these. I am curious to kmow what formula you use, if any, to recreate PPS.

#42 ac12

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:36

hmmm

my DC SuperShow Blue does not match the sample on Sach's pix.  In fact I was quite disappointed when I tested it.  Mine is lighter/more washed out in color, not the rich color that is on your scan.  In looking at your pix, I think my pen (Lamy joy with 1.1 nib) is not as wet as your pen, so I am not getting as much ink onto the paper.  I may have to widen the slit in the nib to make the pen a bit more wet.

 

DC's scan is lighter in color than Sach's scan.

Assuming the scans are somewhat correct.  (But remember ass-u-me)

Based on my experience, he may indeed have the genuine Penman Saphire ink, but if his pen is dryer, then ink line he is matching to is lighter.

So the reference point for color matching is different.

Will the ink darken to the same degree when put into a more wet pen?  Can't tell until it is tested and compared.



#43 ac12

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 00:33

I made up a small batch of the ink, but without any water, for test 1.

I tested with a F nib fountain pen nib in a dip pen holder and the ink was much darker than DCs ink.  Close to your Sach's '97 Penman sample.  But it is hard to compare the color of my F nib ink like with Sach's wide ink line.

I am going to look for an italic nib to see what a wider ink like looks like.

Then I will try again with water mixed into the ink.


Edited by ac12, 21 June 2014 - 00:34.


#44 ac12

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 02:55

Here is my test.

I mixed the inks, but without water, to get the darkest ink color.

As you can see the ink color varies by the pen I used.  The darkest ink is from a Goulet #6 F nib in my dip pen holder.  The Lamy F and 1.1 nibs are lighter than the Goulet nib.

I also put a sample of Private Reserve, DC SuperShow Blue at the bottom for comparison.  Unfortunately, the scanner altered the color.  The DCSS blue is more blue than purple.  So my scanner is not color neutral.

 

I tried to adjust the image so the image on MY screen looks like the ink on the paper.

It is close, but not accurate.

However, you can see the relative differences between the pens and the inks.

Attached Images

  • Faux Penman Saphire #9-c.jpg

Edited by ac12, 25 June 2014 - 03:50.


#45 Mags

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 14:19

This is a recipe that I will keep for use in the future.  Merci.


Bob Maguire (Plse call me "M or Mags" like my friends do...)
I use a RIM PlayBook and a fountain pen.

#46 ebluegrass

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 14:12

What is a good recommendation to store 200ml of ink in?  Thanks.

 

Regards,

Bill



#47 XiaoMG

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 16:37

Sach's original Penman Sapphire looks somewhat evaporated, which yields a higher dye density. I have not tried the mix, but I suspect it's probably not too far off the way Parker Sapphire looked when it was sold.
Robert.

#48 EGdaTarHeel

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 19:02

I use small plastic bottles from Nalgene that I purchased from Amazon. Most of mine are 30cc as I use them for travel. They are unbreakable for my purposes and unless your pen is very thick, they fit right into the bottle to fill. Nalgene makes many sizes of bottles and should have one to fit your needs.


What is a good recommendation to store 200ml of ink in?  Thanks.
 
Regards,
Bill



#49 katerchen

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 22:41

Oooh I'll have to try this ... need to order the Majestic Blue first though.

 

I was curious : why so much water? Are Diamine inks considered that saturated?

 

-k



#50 dcwaites

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 00:14

Oooh I'll have to try this ... need to order the Majestic Blue first though.

 

I was curious : why so much water? Are Diamine inks considered that saturated?

 

-k

 

The Majestic Blue is quite a dark blue. I just added water until it looked right.

That also had the advantage of improving the dry time, smearing and bleeding properties of the Diamine ink to something very close to the original PPS.

 

Don't forget you really only need to order a 30ml bottle of the Diamine inks.


Edited by dcwaites, 18 September 2014 - 00:15.

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#51 GTVi

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 23:20

I ordered the 30ml bottles...plenty of ink there to experiement with.

 

I have just tried your recipe. I don't know if it replicates the original PPS as I don't have any to compare, but I do like the new colour.

 

I think this is going to be my "go to" blue for a while.

 

Thanks for introducing this to us. Cheers. :D



#52 landrover

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 09:03

Many, many thanks for this DCW.

#53 katerchen

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 04:57

OacinU6.jpg



#54 dcwaites

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 04:38

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#55 Chrissy

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 22:58

The last post from dcwaites is more like the shade of PPS that I have in my last cartridge, than the one above it from katerchen


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#56 katerchen

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 23:20

The last post from dcwaites is more like the shade of PPS that I have in my last cartridge, than the one above it from katerchen

 

Yeah, my scanner tends to wash out colors. It's darker than that in person. I need to tweak the exposure ... I just left everything on auto. Works wonders on photos, not as accurate on documents.

 

-k

 

(I did follow his instructions to the letter though)


Edited by katerchen, 18 November 2014 - 23:21.