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Faux Penman Sapphire #9


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#21 Mesu

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:04

Looks almost exact replica of the original.

Thanks for sharing the recipe.

#22 dcwaites

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:11

Neither is particularly water resistant, and the degree of shading with both is similar.


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#23 The Good Captain

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:28

I have all the ingredients so I'll give it a try soon. Thanks for all your efforts.


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#24 dcwaites

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 02:51

Thank you all, for your nice comments.

One of the things that makes this an extra special blend is that it is more than 50% water. That means that two 30 ml bottles of ink at approx. $4 ea will give you 112mls of ink for $8.


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#25 sadiemagic

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:04

Oooo, I can't wait to try this! I have 2 bottles of the real thing remaining, and I am stingy with using it, but you may have achieved perfection with this blend! Thank you!


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#26 Sach

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:54

I have an almost full bottle of the original Parker Penman Sapphire. This bottle has suffered no evaporation at all, and is at the original concentration.
I use this as my base standard to compare all my samples with.
 
I wanted an ink that not only looked like the original, but behaved like it as well, in dry time, bleeding, etc. This is the first time I have been able to get both.
 
Also when I compare ink behaviour (the evil trilogy of FBS (Feathering, Bleeding, Spreading) ) I always use middle-of-the-road paper. If I use good paper (Rhodia, Clairefontaine, etc) the paper is so good it hides those behaviours.


Out of curiosity; where and when did you acquire this full bottle of PPS? I have half a bottle remaining of the original which I bought in around 1997 whilst I was in school. I bought a full bottle from a pen show last year, but have serious doubts about its contents, as it appears to have a very noticeably different colour.

#27 dcwaites

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 12:29

I got two bottles from eBay, in separate purchases, before the pricing went crazy. One I have been using, and the other is almost untouched, so I have been using that as a reference sample.


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#28 Sach

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 18:21

I got two bottles from eBay, in separate purchases, before the pricing went crazy. One I have been using, and the other is almost untouched, so I have been using that as a reference sample.

When was your purchase?

The trouble I find is that I'm just not convinced that most of the ink in bottles being sold as PPS are actually genuine. The bottle I bought last year is no where near the original that I myself bought in around 1997. It would be very easy for me to decant the contents of the bottle and fill it up with PR electric blue or Diamine Majestic blue and sell it on for £50 or something. It's just too much of an economic temptation.
I heard an interview by Brian Goulet of Nathan Tardiff, of Noodler's fame, and he spoke of just this problem when trying this replication.

Sorry to ruin the fun guys, but we need to know that what we're actually using as a benchmark is verified as original, and seems like many comparisons are just chasing a mirage...

Edited by Sach, 26 April 2014 - 18:22.


#29 welch

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 21:38

- It would be easy enough to triangulate: to check against a pair of Penman inks.

- Electric Blue does not look like PPS, and neither does Majestic Blue. Electric is much too dark, and Majestic lacks a sapphire / purple tone...so a mix of Diamine Majestic and Diamine Sapphire might work...and, aha, that's this recipe!

- DC Supershow Blue comes close, but lacks the sheen, or what I call "the glow".

- Penman comes in a box. It's pretty easy to tell if a box is shelf-worn or if it has been opened, the bottle opened, and the ink poured out. Things won't quite fit. There will be stains.

- A final check: someone was selling Penman Sapphire cartridges. I bought several dozen. Th ink had evaporated from the "tap-a-tank" end. Add water and you should have the original strength Penman Sapphire. 


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#30 dcwaites

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 00:31

When was your purchase?

The trouble I find is that I'm just not convinced that most of the ink in bottles being sold as PPS are actually genuine. The bottle I bought last year is no where near the original that I myself bought in around 1997. It would be very easy for me to decant the contents of the bottle and fill it up with PR electric blue or Diamine Majestic blue and sell it on for £50 or something. It's just too much of an economic temptation.
I heard an interview by Brian Goulet of Nathan Tardiff, of Noodler's fame, and he spoke of just this problem when trying this replication.

Sorry to ruin the fun guys, but we need to know that what we're actually using as a benchmark is verified as original, and seems like many comparisons are just chasing a mirage...

 

I have three lots of PPS, from three different sources. Each is identical, and has the set of features that other inks don't --

  • The unique colour and shading
  • Fast drying with no smearing
  • Excellent bleeding and feathering behaviour
  • The famous "Red Sheen"

Up until now, I have not been able to find any other substitute for PPS that matches all the above criteria.

 

Now I might have been caught out with one purchase, but it is unlikely that three different suppliers could create hitherto unknown clones that were identical.

 

There was a small re-release of Penman Sapphire by Parker a few years ago, but it had a different set of properties from the original. Some of these bottles were supplied with Parker Duofold True Blue pens.


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#31 Sach

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:32

My experiments, which were done with BB+ cursive italics, showed that electric blue and majestic blue had the fabled 'sheen', and this PR ink was in this respect, far better than the DC supers how blue variant. I compared to my original 1997 bottle, and my replications mostly involved mixing PR electric blue, Majestic blue, and Cult pens Deep dark blue, which is also another diamine ink.

I'm going to try the sapphire blue mixing to see how this compares to my samples.

#32 Chrissy

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:00

When was your purchase?

The trouble I find is that I'm just not convinced that most of the ink in bottles being sold as PPS are actually genuine. The bottle I bought last year is no where near the original that I myself bought in around 1997. It would be very easy for me to decant the contents of the bottle and fill it up with PR electric blue or Diamine Majestic blue and sell it on for £50 or something. It's just too much of an economic temptation.
I heard an interview by Brian Goulet of Nathan Tardiff, of Noodler's fame, and he spoke of just this problem when trying this replication.

Sorry to ruin the fun guys, but we need to know that what we're actually using as a benchmark is verified as original, and seems like many comparisons are just chasing a mirage...

That's a depressing thought, and I don't know how proof of originality could be provided. However, I know for certain that the PP Emerald that I'm selling in the Classifieds is definitely legit



#33 Sach

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 19:37

Here is a shot from the comparison that I made a few months ago. This is just one shot, but I also made detailed comparisons, starting with majestic blue and sequentially adding 1ml of PR electric blue to the mixtures, and in a separate test, also adding deep dark blue. The test was conducted with an M800 with an IB nib, to best bring out the sheen. The supposedly genuine recent purchase was just so very different, that I had to smell a rat in there somewhere.

 

PR electric blue is really really close to the original. i think Private reserve also developed this quite a number of years ago, when i feel more of the genuine stuff was actually around to mimic. As the years have gone on though, I think that the actual colour of "the stuff" that is being replicated is also evolving. Just my thoughts..Penman comparison.JPG



#34 Sach

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 18:37

Just tried this mix..

Absolutely No Resemblance to Parker Penman Sapphire!

I commend your efforts for trying, I'm just not convinced that what you're copying is the genuine article. PPS was super saturated. I mean more than anything else I've ever encountered. Love it or hate it, all sentiments were the result if this feature of that ink. This mix is washed out and no sheen at all. I tried with a Pel M800 IB nib.

#35 dcwaites

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 23:10

As I said, I have three different samples of PPS.

They are from three different, independent vendors, all NOS, sealed, and from three different countries.

All three are identical with each other, in both packaging and ink properties, and I bought them before the current price rise, at a time when there was no incentive to fake PPS.

 

To get three different fakes, from different countries, that were identical in both packaging and ink properties seems less probable than that I have three different, genuine lots of Parker Penman Sapphire.


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#36 Sach

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 23:24

As I said, I have three different samples of PPS.
They are from three different, independent vendors, all NOS, sealed, and from three different countries.
All three are identical with each other, in both packaging and ink properties, and I bought them before the current price rise, at a time when there was no incentive to fake PPS.
 
To get three different fakes, from different countries, that were identical in both packaging and ink properties seems less probable than that I have three different, genuine lots of Parker Penman Sapphire.


I'm curious as to why my mix had absolutely no resemblance to my bottle of PPS. It wasn't even remotely close...

#37 Bemo

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:41

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?



#38 carlos.q

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:03

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?


Good idea.

#39 EGdaTarHeel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:13

My mix is slightly off but it's due to the lack of accurate measuring implements. I was using a graduates cylinder which has the inherent challenge of the dyes of these saturated inks easily masking the lines of the cylinder. So I think my mix is off a bit. DC suggested using syringes as it's easier to get an accurate measurement. I plan on trying again.

As far as your variation, perhaps it's a variation in the ingredient ink. If we think about it, we are working to adjust the pigment mix of a given ink to match that of PPS. If one of the components is off, the final product will be off.

#40 Sach

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:55

Sach, how about pics for comparison purposes?


If you look a few posts up, I've put up a picture of my bottle of PPS from 1997, together with the new bottle that I purchased last year. I'll show these next to the mix from this topic. I used a syringe me measure all quantities, and used an IB nib in an M800 for the original comparison, as broader nibs would demonstrate sheen far better.

I'll show how this mix compares next to the original . I'm still not convinced about this triangulation idea. Let's face it, if you're online looking for an ink that was discontinued twelve years ago, it says something about your level of interest in fountain pens. If you're selling a bottle of PPS for $60 or something then you too clearly know something about ink and it's demand.
If you look over the last ten years or so, there have been inks that have developed as PPS replicas. Initially it was PR DC super show blue, then PR electric blue with its better sheen, and more recently Diamine majestic blue. If five years ago I wanted to deceive someone, I'd have done it with DC super show, few years later it would have been electric blurb, and more recently it would have been majestic blue. So the fact that bottles bought at around the same time on ebay appearing similar should be obvious.

PPS, PR electric blue and diamine majestic blue are most similar to each other. I'm sure that the new bottle that I bought last year is filled with DC super show blue, from my own comparisons.