Another 'plum' Investigation! Help Identify The Color Of This Parker 51!

[pajaro]

Hi 'Pajaro'!

 

I already paid! ..even before I had posted this! Not too much in my opinion...

 

But tell me, what would you have paid for 4 of these P 51s - three having gold nibs and one having an octanium nib + the plum lure?? Just want to figure...

 

But yes, I promise to post my exaltation or dissapointment, whatever it is, the moment I receive the pens in February!

 

It would be a l-o-n-g wait till then...

 

I have mixed feelings about vacs. I have one that appears to be on the original sac from 1948, and it still works, but looks like the wrath of God. I might have thought $25 to $30 each for the vacs and $40 for the others, if aerometric. Because they are in a lot, and of unknown condition (they are unknown until you get them to examine). Max, I might have paid $140, but really would have dropped out at about $50. When buying unknown lots I didn't pay much. That said, I don't want to acquire any more pens, and so they must be a big bargain. I have a plum, and most aero colors. I used to collect 51s, but moved on.

[farmersmums]

I would have paid up to about $200 for that lot, but I'm also not really collecting (I have all of those pens already), so it'd be to restore and pass along. Knowing that one properly restored 51 will go for $80-100 I'd feel pretty safe there

 

Also, for what it's worth I believe your chances of plum on that demi are excellent, especially given the side-by-side with a burgundy pen. I see the colors (pic 1, left to right) as: Plum, Burgundy, Teal Blue, Midnight Blue (all Aero fillers). There's a small chance that last one could be a Blue Cedar vac-filler, but I can't make out any blind cap line there. Still, the pics aren't THAT clear.

[pajaro]

It's one thing to consider offering bids when you expect to resell higher, but collectors have to expect to have to send vacs out for refurbishing and spend time sprucing the 51s up to make them fit for inclusion in a collection. There's little profit to the collector, just more expense, so you need to get them as cheap as possible. A purchaser of this stuff needs to worst-case the wares, not best-case them.

 

If you paid $200 for that lot and the "plum" turned out to be something else, would you be making any money?

[FarmBoy]

Well, I don't have statistics of the percentage of 'plum' 51s made by Parker, but going by observation, they are definitely not common...

 

That is perhaps the very reason behind so many threads by members eagerly wanting an opinion on their latest acquisition in the 'plum' direction! I am sure a lot goes the 'burgundy'/ 'brown' way, dissapointments which never get posted!

 

Whatever be it, house sparrows they aren't...

What strikes me as odd is the desire to own a Plum. This desire seems to be based on some perceived rarity. Taken in context a Plum is not rare. Compare Plum 51 (all kinds) to all Gray 1st year pens. Plum 51s get a feeding frenzy and often go above 200. First year 51s in gray on the same auction site often sell in the same range.

 

I would postulate that there are several hundred Plum 51s to every Gray 1st year 51.

But I run in a strange 51 crowd so I likely don't know much.

[OcalaFlGuy]

I'd have a Plum or three if they were India Black common.

 

I like the "chromatic effect" where it looks either Black or Plum. My Kawasaki Concours has a similar effect but Green/Black.

 

There are angles where clearly looks black when it is indeed a dark green.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[inkstainedruth]

What strikes me as odd is the desire to own a Plum. This desire seems to be based on some perceived rarity. Taken in context a Plum is not rare. Compare Plum 51 (all kinds) to all Gray 1st year pens. Plum 51s get a feeding frenzy and often go above 200. First year 51s in gray on the same auction site often sell in the same range.

 

I would postulate that there are several hundred Plum 51s to every Gray 1st year 51.

But I run in a strange 51 crowd so I likely don't know much.

I didn't want a Plum because it was rare. I wanted one because it was a pretty color.

Cocoa is supposed to be a color that is less common (I won't use the R word), and personally, I wouldn't cross the street for one if it was on sale for 79 cents.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Jerome Tarshis]

What strikes me as odd is the desire to own a Plum. This desire seems to be based on some perceived rarity. Taken in context a Plum is not rare. Compare Plum 51 (all kinds) to all Gray 1st year pens. Plum 51s get a feeding frenzy and often go above 200. First year 51s in gray on the same auction site often sell in the same range.

 

I would postulate that there are several hundred Plum 51s to every Gray 1st year 51.

But I run in a strange 51 crowd so I likely don't know much.

 

I believe FarmBoy has answered his own question here. If he is right that there are several hundred plum 51s to every gray 1st-year 51, it would be hundreds of times less likely that you were going to buy a gray 1st-year 51. Too rare to be rationally aspired to. To be aspirational, a product or other daydream has to be more attainable than that.

 

In my father's generation I'm sure many more men said to themselves, "I want to drive a Packard some day" than "I want to drive a Duesenberg some day." A fair number of those people lived to drive a Packard. It's like the Parker 51 itself. Once upon a time it had perceived rarity, and right now, even for some FPNers, it has perceived unaffordabilty. But the rarity and the unaffordability are a lot less prohibitive than if someone specified a gray 1st-year 51. So, yes, not being really, really rare makes this a more practical daydream than some. And Tom says he's bought ten. How many here have bought ten gray 1st-years? What's more, plum is a nice color, as inkstainedruth points out. A cult that offers a little hope is a cult with room to expand.

[pajaro]

That's very well expressed.

 

The possibility of finding a less common plum pen mislabeled seems to keep it on the radar. Good bargain hunting sport. A lot of the vac 51s are easier to identify for what they are, and priced out of reach for many.

[OcalaFlGuy]

And for your bummer thought of the morning...

 

The Plum snipe hunt wouldn't be near the fun it is if it weren't for today's rampant human lazyassness.

 

Fleabay bidders are too lazy to research and learn JACK about what they are bidding on. They'll bid without asking any questions because it's easier that way even when there's a 5 word item description and pics that have you wondering if it's a P-51 or a paint stirrer. They're too lazy to spend 5 minutes looking very closely at what decent pics there are.

 

Fleabay sellers are ALSO too lazy to research and learn JACK about what they are selling. Their pics often look bad enough to almost be purposefully that bad. They post a 5 word description that THEY can't even tell what they're selling from and then are too damn lazy to answer any questions. If they will answer questions, they're too lazy to bother to post the questions and answers back to the listing.

 

And then...

Well THEN you have the Plum snipe hunting Ninjas.

 

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Edited January 15, 2014 by OcalaFlGuy

[Florida Blue]

I took FarmBoy's statement to mean that plums were overpriced compared to other 51s that are actually rare or much rarer than plum 51s.

 

I do agree with Jerome that this is probably due to attainability and knowledge of different 51s variants. Many people don't know how to identify a 1st year 51 from another Vac-era 51, but those people know about plum because of the frequent threads that are posted on FPN about people hunting for them on eBay and the hype that surrounds the color as a consequence.

 

This drives up the price for known plums because there are more people looking for plums than 1st year 51s in any color.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Florida Blue

[farmersmums]

And for your bummer thought of the morning...

 

The Plum snipe hunt wouldn't be near the fun it is if it weren't for today's rampant human lazyassness.

 

Fleabay bidders are too lazy to research and learn JACK about what they are bidding on. They'll bid without asking any questions because it's easier that way even when there's a 5 word item description and pics that have you wondering if it's a P-51 or a paint stirrer. They're too lazy to spend 5 minutes looking very closely at what decent pics there are.

 

Fleabay sellers are ALSO too lazy to research and learn JACK about what they are selling. Their pics often look bad enough to almost be purposefully that bad. They post a 5 word description that THEY can't even tell what they're selling from and then are too damn lazy to answer any questions. If they will answer questions, they're too lazy to bother to post the questions and answers back to the listing.

 

And then...

Well THEN you have the Plum snipe hunting Ninjas.

 

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

Bruce, I fully agree on the rampant laziness- I've succumbed too often to the "Eh, if it's not what I want I'll make it work somehow" thought process instead of asking specific questions of eBay sellers. When it comes to potential plums and other uncommon pens, however, I tend to avoid asking those questions because some sellers will turn around and post the answers in the listing. I suppose some may call this avoidance of public information underhanded, but it seems to me part of the eBay game. I'd rather guess based on my personal experience than ask the question and have it answered publicly. The "plum snipe hunt" loses some of its appeal if the seller posts "the color is deep purply egglplantish in daylight or under a flash" and the bidding goes up to $200. Other perspectives welcome, of course...

[ANM]

I too have avoided asking questions when I fear a public answer will drive up the price.

[pajaro]

I have a plum set, and don't mind driving up the price, because I don't want any more of these plum pens anyway.

 

Generally I believe you have to rely on yourself to judge characteristics of items on offer and keep what you know and observe to yourself. There's no sense in helping the competition. I have seen obvious so and so pens with a lot of bids at the low end, and asked, "hey, Jim-Bob, does that thing look bluish or purply?" When I am not interested in the item I like to stir the pot, because I think everybody should pay upwards of $200 for a plum 51. I like the midnight blues better. I have several.

 

Now that somebody jerked my chain on this, I might look for a first year.

[OcalaFlGuy]

As much as I rail against Braille bidding, you can imagine how often I ask questions.

 

Rather.

 

It has been my experience that only about 1/3 of the LA sellers will post the questions/answers Back to the listing. That's pretty good odds and I can actually improve on that some.

 

On say a potential Plummer I'll send my lamest carrier pigeon in first and see if he makes it out alive. Something along the lines of "Please tell me Exactly what it says on the filler cage." or ask about a date code without mentioning the two numbers specifically. I am already having to ask these very questions because the seller is unclear, I don't have the highest confidence in any of their back channel color appraisals. IF I were to need to ask them any questions about let's say outside light and eggplants, I'd ONLY do that After I KNOW from my more innocuous earlier question(s) that they won't be posting the info back to the listing.

 

The Very Best intel is that which you Know No One Else has.

 

This actually usually has Me ending up feeling a little bad though.

 

Most of my Fleabaying these days is looking for unusual patterned Esties to buy and restore for someone else. There, almost ALL the questions involve Estie problem areas like clips and jewels. When a LA seller Doesn't post the info back in these cases, all it really Ensures is that Someone Else other than me gets a pen with problems. Just because someone is a LA doesn't mean I wish them misfortune. It's not good Kharmal.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Edited January 16, 2014 by OcalaFlGuy

[Inkysloth]

I have a plum set, and don't mind driving up the price, because I don't want any more of these plum pens anyway.

 

When I am not interested in the item I like to stir the pot, because I think everybody should pay upwards of $200 for a plum 51. I like the midnight blues better. I have several.[/color]

 

Now that somebody jerked my chain on this, I might look for a first year.

Is this tongue in cheek or serious?

 

If it's serious, that's a really jerky thing to do IMO.

[OcalaFlGuy]

There's another one hiding in plain view on Fleabay.

 

Ends in about 4 days, 3 bids, $24.50 already.

 

Clearly a Demi, GF cap that's fairly clean, just some light scratches and the pics are pretty clear and not badly done.

 

Just from the pics I'd say 95% probable it's a Plummer and interestingly enough, a Push 4 times filler.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[pajaro]

If it's plum, wouldn't the filler be a replacement?

[OcalaFlGuy]

Paul, good catch.

 

IMO, the answer is a definitive Maybe.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/30026-parker-51-aerometric-demi-plum-with-gold-filled-cap/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/119697-51-demi-hoodbarrelfiller-conundrum/

 

I went and checked out the Evil Lord's site. He had 10 Demi Plummers, only 1 appears to have a hoop filler.

 

OTOH,

 

You will often hear folk say that a Plummer needs to have the earlier Press 6 times filler as the Press 4 times filler (like the Demi hoop filler) didn't "come out" until 1950, After the 2 year Plum run. However, that is simply not true. Parker jumped the gun and put a bunch of the Press 4 times "1950" fillers in the late '49 Plums as is evidenced by David having Several like that. (Press 4 times filler)

 

You've piqued my interest enough to send the seller the length and date code questions for more information. I'll report back.

 

I think it's as likely that some later hoop fillers were used at the factory at the end of '49 as some of the full size "1950" Press 4 time fillers were.

 

Those pics were taken against a similar to neutral gray background and show no tinting to that background. I'm inclined to Not argue Those pics IMO.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Edited April 21, 2014 by OcalaFlGuy

[OcalaFlGuy]

I heard from the Seller, it's a Demi with a date code 3rd qtr '48.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[OcalaFlGuy]

I believe we have a consensus. Bruce in Ocala, Fl