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Learning Italic


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#31 Mickey

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 22:55



IMHO this is probably no bad thing, as your handwriting will reflect more personality as a result of the mix, than mine ever could!

Over the years, I've become so accustomed to isolating the various writing styles, that I doubt if I could produce a 'mix' without a great deal of effort.

 

I look forward to seeing your 'new' handwriting.

 

Ken

 

As threatened / promised, here is a short sample of my handwriting du jour in the Italian mode. Like most of my scribbling, it is idiosyncratic and subtle, i.e., mongrelized and not displaying much line variation. The pen is a Nakaya with a flexible (modified) fine left oblique (c. .4mm wide), which shows almost no variation expect with IG inks on hard finished papers, like Clairefontaine. (The sample was written on Classic Crest.) None the less, this is a pleasant pen to write with and these days it lives in my pocket. Probably the most authentically Italian aspect of the sample below is the ink, Stipula Verde Muschiato. (For those curious, the x-height is about 2mm. The sample was written at normal speed, not as calligraphy.)

 

 

fpn_1384814372__newjerusalem.jpg


Edited by Mickey, 18 November 2013 - 22:57.

But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#32 ruben50

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:10

So here is my first attempt at italics. I grabbed this out of a book I have lying around the house and since it was 1 AM when I did this I guess it's decent. I'll definitely try my hand at the one you posted on the first page Ken. That one seems a bit easier than the one i was using. 

 

I wrote this using a 1.1 mm nib but I think I should try it with my 1.9 mm nib next. What do you usually prefer when working with italics?

 

Scan%2520Nov%252019%252C%25202013%252C%2


Edited by ruben50, 19 November 2013 - 14:59.

Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
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#33 Ken Fraser

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:38

 

As threatened / promised, here is a short sample of my handwriting du jour in the Italian mode. Like most of my scribbling, it is idiosyncratic and subtle, i.e., mongrelized and not displaying much line variation. The pen is a Nakaya with a flexible (modified) fine left oblique (c. .4mm wide), which shows almost no variation expect with IG inks on hard finished papers, like Clairefontaine. (The sample was written on Classic Crest.) None the less, this is a pleasant pen to write with and these days it lives in my pocket. Probably the most authentically Italian aspect of the sample below is the ink, Stipula Verde Muschiato. (For those curious, the x-height is about 2mm. The sample was written at normal speed, not as calligraphy.)

 

 

 

Mickey :

 

This look to me like straightforward personalised Italic. The basic ingredients which make Italic what it is, are there - specifically, the characteristic wedge shape and the lack of loops. As far as I know, the linking from the centre of the minuscule e to the following letter is pure Italicism...but I may be wrong.  There may be a Spencerian influence but it must be very minor. - interesting.  Thanks for posting.

 

Ken


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#34 Mickey

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 14:38

Mickey :

 

This look to me like straightforward personalised Italic. The basic ingredients which make Italic what it is, are there - specifically, the characteristic wedge shape and the lack of loops. As far as I know, the linking from the centre of the minuscule e to the following letter is pure Italicism...but I may be wrong.  There may be a Spencerian influence but it must be very minor. - interesting.  Thanks for posting.

 

Ken

As a linguist might say, it's more an accent than a dialect or register. The main difference from my pre-Spencerian handwriting is a tendency towards being a bit more angular, and, when not writing for public consumption, adoption the Spencer terminal 't' and 'd'. It's also fun to let a some uncial shapes leak in on, for example on a terminal 'm' or 'n' or initial 'w.' As my italic writing is now almost exclusively for my own consumption, I don't need to concern myself with stylistic consistency. It's also something of a hand in progress, primarily because of the pen, which shows to better advantage at around x=3mm with the present width and minimal slant. This puts the l-oblique's thin strokes where they belong, on the join angle and wedge diagonal. All I need to do is I use up my present paper stock and make a template for printing x=3mm Seyes paper.

 

BTW, this nib is a real sweet-heart, a piece of custom work from John Mottishaw, a flex-modified OF, cut from a soft medium. The idea was to get something nearly quill soft, not blatantly flexible. It's close.  Though not part of the specification, when inverted the pen is a perfectly usable crisp r-oblique.


But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#35 fiberdrunk

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 16:08

This was done with calligraphy markers, with a bit of Joanne Fink inspiration.

 

10946330746_b3a9eca4fb_b.jpg


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#36 mboschm

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 16:20

This could be the rules for my everyday italic handwriting.

 

DSC_0584_zpsea1246bf.jpg


Edited by mboschm, 19 November 2013 - 16:21.

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#37 akustyk

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 16:31

IMG_7762_zps457c3343.jpg


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#38 mvarela

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 16:34

IMG_7762_zps457c3343.jpg

 

I wish I could have written like that after only a few months, or even after a year, for that matter!

That's simply outstanding!

 

Cheers,

  Martín



#39 mboschm

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 17:18

Your hybrid writing is really beautiful. Keep on with it!


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#40 dms525

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 00:19

IMG_7762_zps457c3343.jpg

 

I think your italic hand is exceptional, considering you have only been learning it for a few months. I envy your consistent letter size, slope and spacing and your level lines.

 

David



#41 smk

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 00:29

I agree with David. 

 

akustyk - your italic is just beautiful. Have you tried writing the faster version with a smaller nib? It looks nice enough as it is but the writing experience might be more flowing at a smaller x-height.

 

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#42 Randal6393

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:45

So here is my first attempt at italics. I grabbed this out of a book I have lying around the house and since it was 1 AM when I did this I guess it's decent. I'll definitely try my hand at the one you posted on the first page Ken. That one seems a bit easier than the one i was using. 

 

I wrote this using a 1.1 mm nib but I think I should try it with my 1.9 mm nib next. What do you usually prefer when working with italics?

 

Scan%2520Nov%252019%252C%25202013%252C%2

 

To my eye, your work looks like a careful attempt at italic by someone who in not practiced in the style. Good, a great place to start at. Now, practice, practice, practice. Would recommend watching Lloyd Reynolds's videos on YouTube (the Reed College channel). Maybe studying a book or two on italic handwriting.

 

There is a world of difference between carefully attempting a hand and fluent writing. Not that long in time, I've seen people advance quite a bit in a month or two. So, break out the books, grab pen and paper, and have fun.

 

As for what width, I generally mix it up and use 0.9 to 1.1 mm nibs for most writing. Practice -- wider spacing, wider nibs. a 1.9 mm nib is good, a 2.2 mm nib or so is better. I like Pilot Parallel pens, Rotring pens, and Brause or Mitchell dip nibs for practice. By the way, practice with critique is very important.

 

Enjoy,


Edited by Randal6393, 20 November 2013 - 01:48.

Yours,
Randal

From a person's actions, we may infer attitudes, beliefs, --- and values. We do not know these characteristics outright. The human dichotomies of trust and distrust, honor and duplicity, love and hate --- all depend on internal states we cannot directly experience. Isn't this what adds zest to our life?
 


#43 Mickey

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:56

IMG_7762_zps457c3343.jpg

Some people are blessed with good hands, others with a critical eye. You seem to have gotten both.


But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#44 dms525

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:46

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#45 mboschm

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:41

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#46 GClef

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 16:10

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#47 ruben50

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 23:09

 

To my eye, your work looks like a careful attempt at italic by someone who in not practiced in the style. Good, a great place to start at. Now, practice, practice, practice. Would recommend watching Lloyd Reynolds's videos on YouTube (the Reed College channel). Maybe studying a book or two on italic handwriting.

 

There is a world of difference between carefully attempting a hand and fluent writing. Not that long in time, I've seen people advance quite a bit in a month or two. So, break out the books, grab pen and paper, and have fun.

 

As for what width, I generally mix it up and use 0.9 to 1.1 mm nibs for most writing. Practice -- wider spacing, wider nibs. a 1.9 mm nib is good, a 2.2 mm nib or so is better. I like Pilot Parallel pens, Rotring pens, and Brause or Mitchell dip nibs for practice. By the way, practice with critique is very important.

 

Enjoy,

 

Thanks for the feedback. This was my first attempt at italics and after completing it I thought it was pretty horrid. My normal handwriting ain't much to look at either. :) I thought I would give it a try since this looks like something I would like to use for everyday writing. I will definitely try to get more practice in and check out those videos on YouTube. I was also thinking of picking up Kens book on Italics to help me out as well.

 

Rube


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#48 akustyk

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 13:26

Thank you all for your comments! I must credit one of the FPN members for encouraging me to use an italic nib and selling me a beautiful Lamy Safari with a 1.1 mm italic. I started practicing using Tom Gourdie's book,which, sadly, got lost in a recent move.

 

Regarding speed, I think that in calligraphy, it is of no consequence. In fact, the main reason I started doing calligraphy was for its meditative, relaxing character. Well, I guess, if you're a professional calligrapher and you have a deadline for making a hundred wedding invitations then it would be helpful if one could do it fast :)

 

In italic handwriting, speed and fluency are both important such that italic becomes one's default hand when taking notes, making grocery lists, writing letters, etc. For me, developing such fluency in italic is almost unimaginable now. Maybe in ten years, I will change my mind, provided I keep practicing. I truly admire people who have been able to learn italic and make it their daily handwriting style.


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#49 ruben50

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 15:11

Here is my second attempt to write in italics. This is after watching the first video that Randal6393 recommended on italics by Lloyd Reynolds on Youtube. Thanks Randal!

 

Learning%2520italics%2520attempt%25202-p

 

The text in red was written with a 1.9 mm nib and the sepia was with a 1.1 mm nib.

 

Rube


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#50 GClef

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 15:48

This is after watching the first video that Randal6393 recommended on italics by Lloyd Reynolds on Youtube. Thanks Randal!


1121131038-1_zpsd956313f.jpg

Edited by GClef, 21 November 2013 - 15:49.


#51 ehemem

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 18:16

 

This is after watching the first video that Randal6393 recommended on italics by Lloyd Reynolds on Youtube. Thanks Randal!


1121131038-1_zpsd956313f.jpg

 

 

But some scripta doesn't merit being manent...

 

Just a thought...



#52 mboschm

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 18:42

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#53 akustyk

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 19:18

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Very cool! I see a nice flow and easiness coming from this specimen. Nicely done!


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#54 Randal6393

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 20:19

Here is my second attempt to write in italics. This is after watching the first video that Randal6393 recommended on italics by Lloyd Reynolds on Youtube. Thanks Randal!

 

Learning%2520italics%2520attempt%25202-p

 

The text in red was written with a 1.9 mm nib and the sepia was with a 1.1 mm nib.

 

Rube

 

Much more confident writing! See, it doesn't take all THAT long to get along in italic. Enjoy,


Yours,
Randal

From a person's actions, we may infer attitudes, beliefs, --- and values. We do not know these characteristics outright. The human dichotomies of trust and distrust, honor and duplicity, love and hate --- all depend on internal states we cannot directly experience. Isn't this what adds zest to our life?
 


#55 mvarela

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 20:26

Here is my second attempt to write in italics. This is after watching the first video that Randal6393 recommended on italics by Lloyd Reynolds on Youtube. Thanks Randal!

 

Learning%2520italics%2520attempt%25202-p

 

The text in red was written with a 1.9 mm nib and the sepia was with a 1.1 mm nib.

 

Rube

It's an improvement!

 

If I may: check your x-height (e.g. the 'g', 'e' and 'h' in the top line) and your slant (the 'f' has a very pronounced slant, whereas all the other letters are vertical).

Another thing is that your arches (in 'n', 'u', 'h') and counters (in 'b' and 'g', for example) are a tad too round. Italic is characterised by wedge shapes (see http://www.fountainp...t-instructions/)

 

Keep up the good work!



#56 HDoug

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 01:16

This is such a great thread! I thought I might add some historical examples to counterbalance the utter perfection of caliken's varieties and current FPN mortals' hands.

 

What we call "italic" is based on examples from a rather broad chronological and geographical area. The beginning of the era was before the invention and proliferation of the printing press, and the earliest "italic" (sometimes "Humanistic cursive" in paleographic sources) predates the first italic handwriting manuals of Arrighi and the like by a century. The "model" or exemplar alphabets are missing and just the practical applications in manuscripts remain. Alfred Fairbank, one of the revivers of the hand, lamented the lack of examples of everyday writing -- the Renaissance grocery list and birthday card are rather rare.

 

We often credit Niccolo Niccoli for having "invented" the script, but we have a couple of variations of his actual handwriting. This is around 1410, I think, and not "typical" Nicolli in that it is very vertical and careful:
10986415356_53d2d3b618_c.jpg

 

Niccoli's handwriting was meant to make clear transcriptions of unfamiliar texts so it had to be quick yet legible. This looks like a "practical" version of his handwriting:

Niccolo_de_Niccoli_italic_handwriting.jp

 

Of course, before the invention of printing, sometimes a clear cursive hand would be used for the actual manuscript too. This may be Niccoli's hand -- in any case it's from a manuscript in his library. Interesting to me is the Carolingian "e" that is slightly taller than the surrounding letters. The cross stroke in e ligatures to the top of the next letter:
10986501943_d614af0af7_c.jpg

Here's an example from a 15th century manuscript. The whole page is sparingly ligatured diagonally like a "proper" italic, and it uses a single-storey "a" but it's not inclined and there are no "f" descenders. I love the three versions of the letter "r" in the third line. Is it an "italic"? Don't know, but it looks nice (IMHO):
10877588054_12d2cc291c_o.jpg

 

Another cursive but suitable for book production...
7269060314_57cfe74888_c.jpg

 

I imagine the urgency to quickly produce a book. This pressure must have helped spark the proliferation of the printing press. This is less a formal cursive and what we would call handwriting? 
8201366418_481528a3e2_c.jpg

 

"Our" own Arrighi seems to have had some time pressures too. This is his writing on a Papal bull which looks like it had to go out in the morning's mail. Not the calligraphic perfection we associate with his name, it's highly ligatured and with a more rounded nib perhaps to facilitate speed. I still like it as an example of handwriting rather than calligraphy:
10986187564_3834d61e82_c.jpg

 

Here's a screen shot from a documentary showing a travel journal. This is a really attractive italic handwriting from the period (IMHO):
8033678847_46ac24ae15_c.jpg

 

I think the printing press in some ways freed handwriting to be something quicker, more personal and more intimate. Perhaps. This is from the 17th century after mechanically reproduced books had taken the task of writing books from the human hand:
9369620324_0d2727bd98_c.jpg

 

Hope you enjoyed one or two of these historical examples.

 

Doug
 



#57 ruben50

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 02:56

It's an improvement!

 

If I may: check your x-height (e.g. the 'g', 'e' and 'h' in the top line) and your slant (the 'f' has a very pronounced slant, whereas all the other letters are vertical).

Another thing is that your arches (in 'n', 'u', 'h') and counters (in 'b' and 'g', for example) are a tad too round. Italic is characterised by wedge shapes (see http://www.fountainp...t-instructions/)

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Thanks for the link mvarela. I'm also ordering a book on italics which will hopefully help me out as well.

 

 

Much more confident writing! See, it doesn't take all THAT long to get along in italic. Enjoy,

 

Randal6393, the thing I took from the video was that that you need a light touch instead of forcing it like I was doing before.

 

1121131038-1_zpsd956313f.jpg

 

 

I concur.

 

 

But some scripta doesn't merit being manent...

 

Just a thought...

 

Like my chicken scratch... :lticaptd:


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#58 dms525

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:02

Doug,

 

Thanks for sharing those very interesting manuscripts. I find the examples of "everyday" handwriting the most interesting, as opposed to the scripts used in copying books for sale or on commission. 

 

My understanding is that Niccoli was not a professional scribe. The examples of his writing we have were written for his own reading. He was an active correspondent, as we know from extant letters written to him. But, from what I've read, we don't have letters he wrote to others. 

 

It seems that, while proto-italic/ sloped humanist scripts were used as book hands early on, the niche in which italic hands were most successful was as chancery hands. But how did it spread? By what course geographically and socially?

 

Have you seen the 2005 Master's Thesis from West Virginia University analyzing the transition in Michelangelo's handwriting from gothic mercantile to humanistic cursive between 1497 and 1502? It provides one example, albeit an extraordinarily interesting one.

 

David

 

David



#59 avt

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:06

Hello all,

What a great thread! Makes me feel inadequate about my attempt at italics. I got my first fountain pen just over 2 months ago and have been practicing almost daily since. Can any of you suggest some books with practice sheets in them. I've been using Write Now but would like to find some other books. Also, how much do you practice in a day or in a week. I want to know if I'm practicing enough.

Thanks,
A

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#60 GClef

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:27


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