Reference Images Of A Genuine 145 Aka Chopin Aka Classique

[hari317]

We can safely say today that the 145/Chopin/Classique has been faked to a sophisticated level. However there are some easy to identify features. After reading a thread posted recently, I decided to take and show some pics and highlight the salient points that fakers have not yet caught.

 

Note: MB has recently changed the nib imprints to Au, presumably to counter the fakery, but the nib shape remains same and plenty of old models are available in the used market. Feeder has also remained the same but might change in future. The length of the GP brass tube that screws into the section varies.

 

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/hari3171/MB145/IMG_9068.jpg

 

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/hari3171/MB145/IMG_9070.jpg

 

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/hari3171/MB145/IMG_9073.jpg

 

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/hari3171/MB145/IMG_9075.jpg

 

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/hari3171/MB145/IMG_9074.jpg

 

I sincerely hope this helps buyers.

 

Regards,

Hari

Edited September 25, 2013 by hari317

[orfew]

Thanks Hari for the very helpful post.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

These are good pictures of the current feed, and my current model pen of a different type, purchased last year, has this current feed. Not all of the feeds have a number on the inside of the notch. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, earlier 145 pens did not all have the notch although the notch is a long running feature of MB feeds. The 145 is almost an evolution of the 144, and some 144 feeds don't have the notch either. You can also find the notch in the older MB split ebonite feeds among others. This feed is also used in the retractable small Boheme, and the cutout on the tip of the feed forms a flat shelf that bumps up against a pin in the cap of the pen in case you forgot to retract the nib first. All of them have seven "free" fins attached to a rectangular block which you can see in the third picture. Usually the first three free fins have a flat edge. There is then a cluster of fins that are attached together. This is where the notch is if the feed has one. If there was anything common in this style feed, it is the two ink channels. The air channel sits between them. MB pens that use this feed take in air through the hole on top of the nib.

 

I have the suspicion that MB contracts someone to make these feeds for them. I've seen two pens with this exact feed. They were no name pens eight and six years ago that were both contracted by different companies from the same company for upscale promotional gifts. They weren't the run of the mill cheap pen you could get, The nibs and feeds interchanged with the 145 and very important and critical details on the feeds were there such as the number and geometry of the fins, fin count and spacing, and the two ink channels separated by the air channel in the center. That said, the pens themselves could not be compared to MB pens in design although they were made well. Even the mold marks and the finish on the feeds matched up. As most people who repair these should know, the feeds and nibs that MB uses are their own sizes, and this feed is a smaller diameter than the 5 mm one common to most cheaper pens with smaller nibs. It is an excellent feed, and I haven't seen it elsewhere beside MB pens and these odd two. I think that one should still be cautious. While having a feed like the one above is a good sign, there are variations and one should be careful before making a judgement. Personally, to be sure, I would have to pull the nib and feed and see how they are finished since the MB feeds are very well finished on both the exposed and unexposed parts. Pulling the nib would give other information such as information about the nib. Any and all nibs and feeds of this type (including the odd two) I've seen fit incredibly tightly due to the high manufacturing tolerances, so a lot of caution is advised and this should be used as a last resort if all else fails. Also, MB has several different nib profiles that fit this feed. They have also a narrow-shoulders version which they use for some special edition non-meisterstück pens. Although they don't use it in the Classique line, but there is no guarantee that one day they will not fit a narrow-shoulder nib to the Classique.

 

Dillon

Edited September 25, 2013 by Dillo

[hari317]

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, earlier 145 pens did not all have the notch although the notch is a long running feature of MB feeds.

Dillon, I am afraid you are mistaken. If you have a genuine counterexample of a 145 without the notch on the feed, kindly show us. As a rule, all MB pens that use a case feeder will have the notch, it serves a specific purpose during the nib -feed testing phase. HTH.

Edited September 26, 2013 by hari317

[NHsueh]

My 145 with the new style Au 585 nib has a feed which is slightly wider with the letter E, and the notch is numbered 2.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4830/n2qy.jpg

Edited September 26, 2013 by NHsueh

[hari317]

My 145 with the new style Au 585 nib has a feed which is slightly wider with the letter E, and the notch is numbered 2.

 

Thanks for yet another confirmation about presence of the notch on the genuine article. In hindsight, I should have included a graticule with my image for size reference.

[psychobabble]

Thanks, Hari, for these pictures. It made me want to go back and examine my pen with a loupe.

 

I noticed a capital "D" at the apex of the feed, near the tip of nib. Is there a significance to this? I noticed yours has a "C" in your pictures.

Edited September 27, 2013 by psychobabble

[hari317]

Thanks, Hari, for these pictures. It made me want to go back and examine my pen with a loupe.

 

I noticed a capital "D" at the apex of the feed, near the tip of nib. Is there a significance to this? I noticed yours has a "C" in your pictures.

Thank you. makes my effort worthwhile.

 

I am sure it signifies something, but I have no information regarding what the letters might denote, we can only guess.

 

Best

Hari

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

My pen has the "D". What nib widths do you have? Mine is an F. Mine lacks the number in the notch. Mine is the same narrow type that Hari has, not the wider type that NHsueh has.

 

If we are to use the notch as an indication of the pen as a genuine piece, we must first make sure it is included in all pens. Otherwise, we could have some false positives, or pens that are real but are considered fake. In all my years of repairing and adjusting Montblanc nibs, I've seen a lot of feeds, and I'm still not certain that the notch appears in all of these feeds, and I'm going to err on the side of not using the absence of the notch as firm evidence of a fake. We do know that most all pens that have the notch, however, are Montblanc, and we haven't seen evidence to the contrary. The 144 also uses a screwable feeder case (removable from the rear like most of the smaller MB pens), but we know for certain that a lot of 144 pens used different feeds that omitted the notch. As far as I'm aware, the notch serves a vital purpose in removal of the nib and feed since it is the only exposed part of the feed that is reinforced and allows one to use a tool that fits perfectly in the notch to pull the nib and feed safely without bending the delicate "free" fins on the feed. Montblanc, however, presumably has other tools that grip these smaller feeds and allow them to be pulled safely since most pens that used the small feed before were un-notched. I wouldn't be surprised if the first revision of the feed lacked the notch but included the reinforced section, allowing MB to pull the nibs and feeds with their older tools that fit the older un-notched feeds of different design, then they decided to just add the notch to make their work a lot easier. I also wouldn't be surprised if the numbers in the notch are a result of the notch being added to the mold later, and the absence of the number in the notch being the latest revision to their tooling or the tooling of the place they contracted to make the feeds. I've never pulled the nib on my MB pen, and don't intend to, but it's less than a year old, was purchased from MB directly, and doesn't have the number that we clearly see in the notch on a lot of other feeds.

 

As someone who adjusts these things, I appreciate the addition of the notch, as it makes pulling these things a lot safer and easier. Older 146 and 149 pens have had the notch a lot longer than the small pens have. It took them a while to change the feed on the smaller pens to this new type that is basically a miniature of the plastic feed used in the current 146 and 149. This is not about who is right or wrong. If we are going to do this as a service, we have to be careful and scientific about how we do this. I for one is finally happy to see discussion on these small feeds since I've asked questions about these in the past that haven't received much participation or answers. Most people haven't been looking at their feeds. Most people take pictures of only their nibs, and I haven't been photographing the feeds of the pens in my shop, since I never thought we would start using the information from the feeds more seriously. I can, though, usually tell with a great deal of accuracy if the feed is from MB once it is pulled out of the pen in entirety, since these feeds are fairly advanced in design and need fairly advanced tooling of great precision to make them to the correct tolerances, dimensions, and finish.

 

That said, here is one photo for the cause. It's the narrow shoulder MB nib paired with the same feed that Hari has. The feed has a "D" at the tip. My pen doesn't have a number in the notch. There isn't even a space where the number should be. My feeder case has notches on the back inside of the section for it to be unscrewed.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/9970013505_663c489c8e_b.jpg

 

Dillon

Edited September 27, 2013 by Dillo

[hari317]

This thread is specifically about being a reference for the 145 and synonyms. Lets not get confused.

 

Regards,

[hari317]

That said, here is one photo for the cause. It's the narrow shoulder MB nib paired with the same feed that Hari has. The feed has a "D" at the tip. My pen doesn't have a number in the notch. There isn't even a space where the number should be. My feeder case has notches on the back inside of the section for it to be unscrewed.

Thanks for contributing with a photo of the genuine article. I think our nibs have similar profiles, your pen is at an angle to the camera plane

 

Hari

[psychobabble]

I have a medium nib, still have the M sticker on the pen since I haven't inked it.

[Chrissy]

I'm a bit lost. Are all these pictures of authentic 145 or Chopin type pens?

[hari317]

I'm a bit lost. Are all these pictures of authentic 145 or Chopin type pens?

you have doubts?

[Chrissy]

No I don't have doubts about the images showing an authentic pen, but I'm not sure which pen or pens they are.

 

144's or 145's or both?

[hari317]

No I don't have doubts about the images showing an authentic pen, but I'm not sure which pen or pens they are.

 

144's or 145's or both?

my pics in the OP are from a 145 as mentioned.

 

NHsueh also 145.

 

Dunno about Dillo, maybe he will chime in.

 

I hope you are not mixing up the older idea of only 144= classique, since today MB is calling the 145 also as Classique since the 144 has been discontinued long back already...

Edited September 29, 2013 by hari317

[Chrissy]

I know the 144 or old Classic is discontinued but there are still many listed on ebay, and I have one that's a fake. I didn't know if they both had the same nib or not. Some old Classics have the gold monotone nib.

[hari317]

I know the 144 or old Classic is discontinued but there are still many listed on ebay, and I have one that's a fake. I didn't know if they both had the same nib or not. Some old Classics have the gold monotone nib.

this thread is not about the 144, maybe we can make a separate thread. The 144 enjoyed a long production run and good variety of variations, in nibs, feeds, converters, section color vs body color etc...

[Rz605]

Does anyone have a way to date 145s?

I'll take something less sophisticated and detailed than the 149 dating chart. Just curious how to date my 145 that is got on eBay couple of years ago.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Rz605

[Sharookh]

Hari - does this apply to the 75th anniversary 145 as well? Your inputs would be very helpful.