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Stupid Question About Dip-Less Pens


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#31 johnmc2

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 20:30

I am guessing that it might have something to do with the threads as (at least the ones I have) the clear portion screws onto the black part.  The plastic (resin?) probably magnifies it.  I could be wrong though.

 

Very cool set, too.

 

Thanks, that makes sense.  We just need someone to volunteer to cut their threads off to check!  I have seen the clear plastic described as Lucite which is the same as Perspex.  

Cheers

John



#32 ANM

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:15

Don't know about the spirals but accountants and bankers put red ink in the one with the red taper for debit entries and black in the other one for income.


And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time. TS Eliot

#33 johnmc2

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:40

Don't know about the spirals but accountants and bankers put red ink in the one with the red taper for debit entries and black in the other one for income.

 

Thank you very much for that information, I had just assumed the set was mismatched!  You live and learn...



#34 JonSzanto

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:00

I'm not sure about the threads. I think it is just light refraction on a tapering, transparent, conical shape.


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
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#35 johnmc2

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:38

Another "stupid question": what is the safest way to clean and polish these bakelite sets?



#36 johnmc2

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:44

I'm not sure about the threads. I think it is just light refraction on a tapering, transparent, conical shape.

 

Thanks Jon: a total-internal-reflection situation, like fibre optics?  Very possibly.  I may take it to work and try some experiments with the laser.  



#37 JonSzanto

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:45

Another "stupid question": what is the safest way to clean and polish these bakelite sets?

 

Man, I wish I could remember! The double-well set that I have is the only Bakelite item of anything I own. When I got it, it was already pretty nice, but I wanted to have it as spiffed as possible. I did a bunch of net research, as there are a lot of older things (phones, radios) that get collected and restored and there was a lot of information out there.

 

But for the life of me, I can't remember what I used! It might have been Simichrome, but could have been something even more benign and simple. Google will help you out on this one, I'm certain.


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#38 JonSzanto

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:47

 

Thanks Jon: a total-internal-reflection situation, like fibre optics?  Very possibly.  I may take it to work and try some experiments with the laser.  

 

I'd love to hear about the results! TBH, I have one of the "hocky puck" sets right in front of me, the only one that stays inked up (J. Herbin "Perle Noire", with a 2314-M nib in the pen), and it sits directly in front of the power LED on my monitor. The blue glow of the lamp lights up the entire taper of the pen handle - very cool!


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#39 johnmc2

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:58

Those 2314 nibs are great, aren't they?  I have a 2314-B in a red J pen, which I use for grading papers, with J.Herbin "Rouge Hematite".  

Anyway thanks for all the ideas, and I'll Google the bakelite polishing thing.

Cheers

John



#40 JonSzanto

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:08

John, if you're still reading, this YouTube has some good info, and probably highlights what I had forgotten: I've been using the Novus plastic polishes on my pens for a while (they come in 3 grades as a kit), and he shows that here...


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#41 johnmc2

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:23

That's great thanks, it's only 5:21pm here so I've got a few hours of pen-mania left!  I think we can get Novus polishes in NZ at the big auto parts chain-store so I'll check it out.  



#42 Lirleni

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:00

OK, I went back to the antique mall, and bought a 444 Dip-Less pen set, black.

I can not figure out how to get the 'lid' off.

the esterbrook site has instructions scanned

http://www.esterbroo...tructions.shtml

saying to use a coin or thin edge as a pry to remove the closure from the well.

I haven't been able to pop it out using 3 coins (equally spaced) to keep it from going back down.

 

My next attempt may be scissors to act as a thin edge to pry, or a letter opener. Just want to know if there is a trick to it?

 

(Also, the mall had another one, in green, with an original box, packing paper, and nib box, if anyone would be interested in it. (They're asing $25)



#43 johnmc2

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:08

If it has been used, it may be stuck with dried ink, and an overnight soak in cool water may do the trick.  They have a rubber ring seal so I wouldn't go poking sharp objects into it.  



#44 JonSzanto

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:15

OK, I went back to the antique mall, and bought a 444 Dip-Less pen set, black.

I can not figure out how to get the 'lid' off.

I haven't been able to pop it out using 3 coins (equally spaced) to keep it from going back down.

My next attempt may be scissors to act as a thin edge to pry, or a letter opener. Just want to know if there is a trick to it?

 

Be *very* careful: the lip edges of the bakelite tops are pretty fragile, and while you may not totally break the thing, it is very easy to put chips in the lip, which can really mar the look.

 

I would try filling it right through the hole where the pen sets with water and let it set for a day or two. There is a rubber gasket that is on the underneath part of the lip, essentially holding it into the inside of the well. This can get stuck with a lot of dried ink. You might even soak the entire thing, unless your bottom has felt or something.

 

Lastly, once mine have been cleaned, they still sometimes don't want to budge too easily with prying action, but often I can put my entire hand over the top and lip and sort-of "unscrew" the top almost as I were twisting a lid off a jar.

 

The bottom line is to soak and take your time. Once you pry and crack the edge, the damage is done.


Edited by JonSzanto, 29 September 2013 - 01:16.

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#45 Brian Anderson

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:41

The very first Esterbrook dip-less sets around 1938 were drum style and these used a special nib and feed.  The nib was essentially a dip pen nib with a feed which held everything together in the holder.  The feed had a lever on it which usually broke off.  finding these types is very hard to find now.  Then Esterbrook went to a threaded section and called it the Dip-Less Universal, meaning it could take the older two piece nib and feed, or the new fangled re-new-points.  This way you could take the nib from your dip pen and put it in your pocket pen or vice-versa.

 

That space behind the nib in the barrel was never meant to hold ink. I recall one (rather knowledgeable) ebay seller many years back selling them as eyedropper pens.  Not true.


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#46 Brian Anderson

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:43

oh and double 444 = 484.


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#47 ac12

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 22:57

Don't know about the spirals but accountants and bankers put red ink in the one with the red taper for debit entries and black in the other one for income.

 

In 2 column bookkeeping,

  • debit is the left column
  • credit is the right column

In 1 column bookkeeping

  • black = debit entries
  • red = credit entries

Now for the funny story about the collision of technology with common use.

When photo copier first were used (I think it was thermal copier back then), the auditors had a fit.  When they photo copied a ledger page that used 1 column posting, they could not tell the debit entries from credit entries, the red and black ink looked the same on the photo copy.

 

It was soon after, that the standard was changed to the following

  • debit entries = positive number, i.e. 56.25
  • credit entries = negative number, i.e. (56.25) or -56.25

That was when the red pen was retired.

But some bookkeepers and accountants probably still wrote the credit entries in red, but with the negative sign added.

 

I wish I talked to my mother and uncle about this a long time ago.  It would have been fun to learn about the pen era and the transition when technology forced a change in how accounting was done.


Edited by ac12, 19 October 2013 - 01:02.


#48 johnmc2

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 00:22

That is a good story.

I just went to the mailbox and found a red-taper dipless pen which I had forgotten I bought...not a big deal in itself but it has a 9314M nib which is going to find its way to my shiny new blue Esterbrook 'J'.  



#49 JonSzanto

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:55

Congrats. Those are some of the very best of the Esterbrook nibs. Well, for me, at least!


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#50 johnmc2

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:59

Congrats. Those are some of the very best of the Esterbrook nibs. Well, for me, at least!

 

Thanks Jon

I had been keeping my 'J' collection uninked but this combination is just too good to pass up.  I've filled it with Baystate Blue.  Any other ink suggestions?



#51 ANM

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 13:45

Baystate Blue had been suspected of melting rubber ink sacs. Probably be OK for a Dipless pen without a sac though.


Edited by ANM, 20 October 2013 - 13:46.

And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time. TS Eliot

#52 tigger23505

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 00:27

The rings are an optical effect called refraction.  The bright rings are locations where the refractive index of the lucite used to make the quills bends the light to the outside of the pen.

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Refraction


festina lente

#53 ac12

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:19

This is a very timely thread, as I just got a 444 :), which I am now restoring (cleaning out old HARDENED ink).

Until this thread, I knew nothing about the Esterbrook dipless pens and holders.



#54 tigger23505

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:44

I replied to the question about the light rings, but somehow managed to reply to a different thread where I fear that it is a non-sequitor.

 

The bright rings are due to an optical property of the quills.  The light is reflected internally as a result of Snell's Law.  The rings are not actually spiral, but parallel.


festina lente

#55 ac12

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:34

I think I fell down another rabbit hole...dipless pens.

I have 2 more 444s on their way to me. 

So I will have both the old and new style 444s.

Now to get a 484 (double base) and 404 and 407 bases.

 

Update, I have a 407 on its way to me.  :)

I hope my wife does not have a fit.


Edited by ac12, 26 November 2013 - 22:09.


#56 ac12

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:45

On the evaporation front-- I use a 444 for red ink at my day job, as I use that colour so infrequently it gums up a FP.  In an extremely dry environment (particularly in the winter), I find I get about a year of use out of a fill, writing as many as fifty words in a week.

 

I just received a 407 today and I thought of you as I was cleaning out the RED ink from 407 and the pen.



#57 pajaro

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:45

 

In 2 column bookkeeping,

  • debit is the left column
  • credit is the right column

In 1 column bookkeeping

  • black = debit entries
  • red = credit entries

Now for the funny story about the collision of technology with common use.

When photo copier first were used (I think it was thermal copier back then), the auditors had a fit.  When they photo copied a ledger page that used 1 column posting, they could not tell the debit entries from credit entries, the red and black ink looked the same on the photo copy.

 

It was soon after, that the standard was changed to the following

  • debit entries = positive number, i.e. 56.25
  • credit entries = negative number, i.e. (56.25) or -56.25

That was when the red pen was retired.

But some bookkeepers and accountants probably still wrote the credit entries in red, but with the negative sign added.

 

I wish I talked to my mother and uncle about this a long time ago.  It would have been fun to learn about the pen era and the transition when technology forced a change in how accounting was done.

 

The accountants where I used to work claimed that credits went by the door and debits by the window.  A Navy retiree claimed they had it backwards.  I was a programmer analyst at the time and my suspicions were confirmed. 


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#58 ac12

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 18:16

 

The accountants where I used to work claimed that credits went by the door and debits by the window.  A Navy retiree claimed they had it backwards.  I was a programmer analyst at the time and my suspicions were confirmed. 

 

Depends on which side of the room the window and door are.

Window on left = debit, door on right = credit.

Beyond that there may have been other memory tricks to remembering the way to write the journal entry.  I heard a few, but sadly do not remember them, and the people that told me those tricks are long gone.



#59 ac12

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 18:20

This is getting nuts.

I have 444  #4 and #5 on its way to me.  I could not resist the price.

I think I am infected with a dipless bug.

And the sad part is that I do not have a permanent desk to set it up and use it.  :(