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#241 mrcharlie

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 14:48

An actual "NOS" Phileas should include a converter.



#242 pajaro

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 16:52

NOS could also include pens out of the box, no box or papers, pens that were in display trays and just never used or sold.  I have bought a few of these pens of different makes, and all were wonderful.  I am not sure I would consider dipped only pens as NOS.  Demo pens, maybe.  I wouldn't want to find ink in an NOS pen.  I have bought a few Watermans from sellers here where the pens came without box or papers, and I am totally satisfied with them, and feel I got an excellent value.


Edited by pajaro, 17 March 2014 - 18:40.

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#243 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 17:53

Interesting differences regarding exactly what each person considers NOS. Surely there is a Fountain Pen Foundation that could look into this and formulate binding standards. Or not. -- TD


 


#244 mrcharlie

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 18:42

Technically you can't fault anyone for calling something "NOS" if it is/was stock from a store that was never sold. I don't know if they were all sold in boxes with papers, or were also sold via 'trays' of unboxed pens. However, if it is missing the original packaging (even unboxed pens generally have a plastic wrapper or similar) and the converter isn't inside, it isn't "NOS" as far as I'm concerned; it is a "display model". "Display models" (not just of pens, but "stuff" in general) are what you call unsold store stock that is missing the packaging, manuals or papers, accessories, etc.

 

I first encountered the term "NOS" a couple decades ago looking for very old motorcycle parts.


Edited by mrcharlie, 17 March 2014 - 18:46.


#245 pajaro

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 19:19

Inclusion of the converter is an interesting stumbling block.  Some cheapskate companies don't include them anymore.  I have found brick and morter vendors who pulled the converters from XX pens and sold the converters separately.  The pens, of course, sold for retail.

 

Many sellers sell unused pens as NOS, no converters.  Usually the price is favorable.  You can always buy a converter, and I didn't let the lack of one stop me from buying a pen I wanted that was described as NOS.

 

Over the years I acquired many Parker 51 fountain pens, never used, in the box with papers.  I believe these were all pens bought and given as gifts, etc., and just put aside, the recipients having been ballpoint users.  How would you categorize pens like this.  I am sure Waterman pens suffered this fate, I just wasn't looking for them and probably tuned them out.  If you find something in new condition, it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is it a duck, or is it an alligator?


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#246 Force

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 19:26

Not all Waterman pens came with converters. The cheaper end models did not and I believe still do not. Was the Phili classed as a cheap pen...I don't know.

 

In addition to this, the more expensive pens came with 2 converters. I have NOS Carenes and Man 200's that came boxed, documented, 2 x converters and a box of 8 cartridges.



#247 pajaro

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 20:32

Not all Waterman pens came with converters. The cheaper end models did not and I believe still do not. Was the Phili classed as a cheap pen...I don't know.

 

In addition to this, the more expensive pens came with 2 converters. I have NOS Carenes and Man 200's that came boxed, documented, 2 x converters and a box of 8 cartridges.

 

That's doing it first class.  The Carene . . .I leave it uncapped on the desk for 5 minutes, ten minutes, and just move the nib lightly on the paper and it writes.  Phileas is just about as good.


Edited by pajaro, 17 March 2014 - 20:33.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.


#248 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 21:00

Not all Waterman pens came with converters. The cheaper end models did not and I believe still do not. Was the Phili classed as a cheap pen...I don't know.

 

In addition to this, the more expensive pens came with 2 converters. I have NOS Carenes and Man 200's that came boxed, documented, 2 x converters and a box of 8 cartridges.

Force, I appreciate your question about whether Phileas is a "cheap" pen. Almost every original write-up of the pen did mention its low price. But they never described it as "cheap". Just the opposite, the upshot was that Phileas was a good bargain AND a good pen. I have praised the unique style and the quality of its feel, but always with the unspoken knowledge that I myself am too "cheap" to spend more to move up to a finer pen. Everyone defines their own balance between price and value. I have found mine in this particular out-of-production fountain pen. -- T.D.


 


#249 Force

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 22:18

Cheap also means low-cost, economical, reasonable, budget etc etc.

 

What was it's price when new....do we know. It would be interesting to know.

 

In ALL the brochures that I have, which are many, the Phili adorns their last page or second to last when the Apostrophe was still in production i.e. that before the accessories. The catalogue list the pens in quality order....dearest to less dear.

 

It may not have been 'cheap' but it certainly was not expensive.

 

Thank goodness those in good condition are not so 'cheap' now.



#250 mrcharlie

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 23:44

I bought mine new in box from a retailer for $22.95. In January 2005. With a converter. :) However, that was a "sale" price (I don't know why they were on sale, but it was at least 30% off and maybe more like 50%), and I don't know the MSRP for sure but I thought it was between $30 and $35 (in the early 2000s); possibly as high as $45.

 

I know some of the local "big box" office supply stores had the Phileas "kit" with four or five carts, a converter, and a bottle of black ink for just less than $50 (so, $49, or $49.50, or $48; something like that) at that same time. Subtract the price of a bottle and a few carts and that would make the pen alone more like $40.

 

I'm sure I didn't see every variety of how the Phileas was sold, but both the ways I saw it included a converter. I've never seen the Kultur packaged to include one though.

 

I wouldn't let the lack of a converter stop me from buying a NOS Phileas either; it would adjust the price I'd be willing to pay. If I was "collecting" them maybe it wouldn't; if I am buying it as a "user" it would.



#251 esteroids

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 05:51

When they were new they were sold however the shop manager wanted.  

I know that here in Seattle, Seattle pen had them in the padded boxes, I don't remember about converters.  

The University Book Store had them in plastic pen trays, 10 to a tray.  You got one short cartridge stored backwards inside the pen.  They had big boxes full of the little blue boxes if you wanted one, but they were separate.  Converters were definitely an extra.



#252 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 14:26

Like some here, I have a modest cache of Phileas pens in good-to-excellent condition. I don't ink the new ones and have thoroughly cleaned out the used ones. I could make a few bucks by selling some, for I surely will never use them all. But I have given away half-a-dozen of the best ones and the grateful look in the eyes of the recipients are beyond price. Sure, I could use a few extra dollars to splurge on other things. But when I periodically peer into those bright blue Waterman boxes, I see future smiles rather than future dollar signs. — TwelveDrawings


Edited by TwelveDrawings, 19 March 2014 - 14:26.

 


#253 pajaro

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 18:37

Like some here, I have a modest cache of Phileas pens in good-to-excellent condition. I don't ink the new ones and have thoroughly cleaned out the used ones. I could make a few bucks by selling some, for I surely will never use them all. But I have given away half-a-dozen of the best ones and the grateful look in the eyes of the recipients are beyond price. Sure, I could use a few extra dollars to splurge on other things. But when I periodically peer into those bright blue Waterman boxes, I see future smiles rather than future dollar signs. — TwelveDrawings

 

That's really nice of you.  This is the kind of thing that builds up a sense of community.  Helping each other out.  When you give someone a Phileas, you are giving them a great pen, a standard by which the recipient can measure other pens.


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--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.


#254 Force

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 17:40

I have not read this before but tt does require updating in areas.



#255 RMN

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 19:09

I have not read this before but tt does require updating in areas.

Indeed the sentence: "but otherwise carry the same design as the Philéas" is incorrect.

 

 

D.ick


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#256 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 23:33

Okay, this Ebay offer will end in mere hours. It APPEARS to be a Phileas in a unique shade of green, but it lacks the "cigar band" in any of the photos. All other metal is the gold color that marks a Phileas. Is this a gold-plated Kultur? (I'm sorry that this will be a moot point before many of the experienced hands here at FPN see this.) I love a mystery...but not enough to buy a suspicious pen. Anyone? -- TwelveDrawings

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item338c3cddcf

 

BTW, the seller makes a point of calling this a "Vintage" Phileas....dating back as far as the 1990s. If that is "vintage", then I am prehistoric. I suppose everything is relative.


Edited by TwelveDrawings, 23 March 2014 - 23:35.

 


#257 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 23:47

I have not read this before but tt does require updating in areas.

Not trying to volunteer you for work, Force. But who better than you to update the Wiki entry on Phileas? Just a suggestion. -- TwelveDrawings


 


#258 Gump

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 23:56

I received a Phileas gift set 5 or 6 years ago that was my first FP.  It doesn't stay in the regular rotation anymore, although this thread did inspire me to ink it up yesterday.

 

A fine pen in my opinion, the nib is wet and even a bit springy on mine. 



#259 RMN

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 00:00

Okay, this Ebay offer will end in mere hours. It APPEARS to be a Phileas in a unique shade of green, but it lacks the "cigar band" in any of the photos. All other metal is the gold color that marks a Phileas. Is this a gold-plated Kultur? (I'm sorry that this will be a moot point before many of the experienced hands here at FPN see this.) I love a mystery...but not enough to buy a suspicious pen. Anyone? -- TwelveDrawings

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item338c3cddcf

 

BTW, the seller makes a point of calling this a "Vintage" Phileas....dating back as far as the 1990s. If that is "vintage", then I am prehistoric. I suppose everything is relative.

Kultur version: 1 monotone nib. 2 no cigar band, just a narrow band 3 lacks the second band on the cap.

 

D.ick


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#260 TwelveDrawings

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:13

I received a Phileas gift set 5 or 6 years ago that was my first FP.  It doesn't stay in the regular rotation anymore, although this thread did inspire me to ink it up yesterday.

 

A fine pen in my opinion, the nib is wet and even a bit springy on mine. 

Glad to hear of your revival of a dormant Phileas, Gump. I hope that such revived interest is one result of the growing number of Phileas threads. As Jon has pointed out, we get a bit over-zealous at times. Pricing issues aside, I rarely hear anyone make claims about the solid writing experience that the Phileas itself cannot deliver. Just my perception. -- TwelveDrawings


 





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