Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[caliken]

I use Iron Gall ink from time to time, but dislike the long wait for it to dry to a proper black and also the corrrosion problems.

 

I still swear by Higgins Eternal. With a nib such as Esterbrook 357, I can get extremely fine hairlines. If it thickens slightly, I just add a few drops of water.

 

Ken

[caliken]

Here's a little exercise in Gouache. I could produce finer hairlines, but I wanted them to show up clearly in reproduction. The finest hairlines aren't always ideal IMO.

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Gouache600.jpg

[MusinkMan]

Sal, I have some of Fiberdrunk's inks too. I have not tried the pomegranate yet, but I have some. What I have tried and love is her cooked Walnut ink. That stuff is killer! I love the color, and though it is a tad thick, it thins easily with a few drops of water. Has pigment for days, that stuff. I've been using it almost exclusively since she sent it to me in appreciation for the lefty holder that I tried to build for her.

 

As for my "cyber teacher"...I can't even tell you guys how excited I am about this. His name is Jay Hughes, perhaps you've heard of him. I had not, and my google search showed a bunch of Jay Hughes's, but not him. He seems to know everyone personally, from Michael Sull to Bill Kemp to whomever I would mention. He's such a laid-back guy, and acts like all of this writing stuff (he calls it scratchin') is no big deal...but I've seen his writing. It is a big deal. Big deal to me! I just hope I can keep up as the plot thickens. His critiques are so helpful...he calls me on the phone and hooks me up to this browser-sharing program so that I can see his screen. He's so down to earth that I sort of forget that he's not just a fellow enthusiast like myself. LOL! I will learn all that I can...I just hope that I have the ability to absorb and execute what he is telling me. Most of them are "little things", but they all add up in the end. "Your slant lines slightly off here and there. Extend the top of that lowercase 's' just a tad over the x line. Make those Spencerian capitals nice and tall, yours are way too short for the style. Your hairlines are thin lines, but not really hairlines, we have to work on that; I need to show you how to use gouache. Arm movement...lock that wrist and fingers and pretend that they don't move...write with your arm. Move the paper, not your arm...keep your forearm in the same place on your desk while writing. Don't deviate...move the paper instead. Don't ever write on a tablet...the height differences in the tablet and the table will screw you all up...put your paper flat on the table with 2 or 3 sheets of paper under it for padding. Watch those slants...they cannot be off even a little bit. You didn't release your nib all the way before beginning that bottom upturn...see that.... hahaha Those little things are like gold nuggets to me. I keep making him wait while I jot down notes...thank goodness he is patient. And he picks these exemplars for me...he said that learning from the "right" exemplar is so important because there are lots of "bad" ones out there. For a wanna-be writing nerd like me, I'll tell ya, I am in hog heaven. hahaha

[MusinkMan]

I use Iron Gall ink from time to time, but dislike the long wait for it to dry to a proper black and also the corrrosion problems.

 

I still swear by Higgins Eternal. With a nib such as Esterbrook 357, I can get extremely fine hairlines. If it thickens slightly, I just add a few drops of water.

 

Ken

Me too, Ken! I didn't like it...it went on light transparent gray in color. My eyesight isn't the best, so I had trouble being able to tell if the thin line was breaking up. And of course since my lines aren't the smoothest, I had a hard time guaging that as well.

 

Higgins Eternal...meeee too. I took that tip from you, and have never looked back. I use it for everything black, and have been using walnut ink for other things. But the most fun I have had has been from Fiberdrunk (Teri's) homebrewed inks. I was so surprised at how good those inks are! Shout out to Fiberdrunk here...wooo hoo!

The hairlines that you get are phenomenal Ken. It's just freaky that you can do that. My Higgins is getting a bit thick...I think I'm going to try your method of adding a little water to it. Thanks for the tip!

[MusinkMan]

Here's a little exercise in Gouache. I could produce finer hairlines, but I wanted them to show up clearly in reproduction. The finest hairlines aren't always ideal IMO.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Gouache600.jpg

 

Well, I had already typed a "quote post" on this, but the site seemed to have crashed when I tried to post it.

 

What I had said was basically that my jaw is still on the floor, and I just don't see how Ken Fraser can do so many things with so many techniques in so many different styles, and they are all world class. I have found a pretty good penmanship teacher, but I can tell you he takes a back seat to Ken Fraser.

 

Is there anything "pen" that you can't do Ken? I'll answer for you...."Nope". :-)

 

Really fantastic...the colors are beautiful and the series of flourishes at the top are an art unto themselves.

Now I REALLY can't wait to try the gouache (although I only ordered black). :-)

[caliken]

Thanks Brian (MusinkMan) - much appreciated.

 

Gouache works well with both pointed and edged nibs. It isn't difficult to use, but it can be a bit frustratiing at first. Getting the mix of paint and water right, can be a bit tricky, At first, it's quite normal for the paint to sit on the nib and refuse to flow. Alternatively, if you've added a little too much water, it'll flood off the nib all at once!

 

It's just a matter of knowing when it's right, and the only way of knowing, is by experience.

 

Once you've sorted out the dilution, you'll find it to be a very good medium for writing with great covering power. There's a huge range of colours available and it's reasonably priced.

I suggest buying the 'Artists' quality rather than 'Students' It's a bit finer for use in a pen; there is little difference in price and it goes a long way.

 

Ken

Edited September 14, 2013 by caliken

[BenBaritone]

My first foray into quill making:

 

Question: I'm doing a project for a friend who wants white text on black cardstock. I'll be using a large, broad-edged dip pen (probably a Speedball C-1 or C-2). What type of medium would be best? Gouache? Acrylic? Thanks!

[dhnz]

Musink, any chance you could post an example of Mr Hughes's gouache hairlines (with his permission, natch)? I've never been able to get anywhere near the hairlines of the old masters with any brand of gouache or with Higgins. The best inks I've used are iron gall and stick ink. Nothing else has come close. The paper also makes a big difference, and I find older paper (when it was made for fountain pens) much better than modern paper.

 

Not all iron gall inks are colourless to start with: it depends on whether or not the maker has added a colourant. Traditionally, they added logwood or indigo so that you could see what you were writing.

[MusinkMan]

He sent me this a few days ago, something he did off the top of his head. I don't know about you, but these hairlines would make me plenty happy if they came from my pen! I think he told me that he used gouache for this.

 

[dhnz]

It's very nice work indeed, but the lines don't really qualify as hairlines in my book. Everything's relative, I guess, but as you've also got originals of Lupfer's to look at, I'm sure you'll agree that lines can get a lot finer than that. I'll try and post a close up of the sort of line you can get with stick ink and good paper.

[MusinkMan]

His flourishy stuff around the P looks pretty hair-fine to me. In his defense, you must remember that he did this "off the cuff". This was something he whipped out and photographed...the ink is still wet. It was all I had to show you. I do know that he used Clairfontaine paper and a Leonardt Principal.

 

I'm anxious to see your stick ink examples. I know that Madarasz used stick inks; I think I read they were Korean stick inks? Not sure about that.

By all means, show us!

[Mickey]

His flourishy stuff around the P looks pretty hair-fine to me.

I agree with you. There needs to be a relationship between the broadest shade and the finest hairline in each piece. If the hairlines become too fine for the scale of writing, they lose functionality, which is not just to decorate but also to connect and define spaces. The hairlines on the sample supplied are impressively fine AND still functional.

 

Citing the look of Madarasz' work may be a bit of a red herring, too. He became so concerned (and probably rightfully so) that people were poaching his work, he was known to water his ink, hoping to defeat the photolithographers. He also had a pocket full of tricks to make his hairlines appear finer than they were, like the little pip on his minuscule s, which was added to give the illusion that the downstroke (curved second stroke) actually swung all the way back to the upstroke. It typically didn't. The eye simply filled in the gap with the finest line imaginable.

[schin]

Sal, I have some of Fiberdrunk's inks too. I have not tried the pomegranate yet, but I have some. What I have tried and love is her cooked Walnut ink. That stuff is killer! I love the color, and though it is a tad thick, it thins easily with a few drops of water. Has pigment for days, that stuff. I've been using it almost exclusively since she sent it to me in appreciation for the lefty holder that I tried to build for her.

 

As for my "cyber teacher"...I can't even tell you guys how excited I am about this. His name is Jay Hughes, perhaps you've heard of him. I had not, and my google search showed a bunch of Jay Hughes's, but not him. He seems to know everyone personally, from Michael Sull to Bill Kemp to whomever I would mention. He's such a laid-back guy, and acts like all of this writing stuff (he calls it scratchin') is no big deal...but I've seen his writing. It is a big deal. Big deal to me! I just hope I can keep up as the plot thickens. His critiques are so helpful...he calls me on the phone and hooks me up to this browser-sharing program so that I can see his screen. He's so down to earth that I sort of forget that he's not just a fellow enthusiast like myself. LOL! I will learn all that I can...I just hope that I have the ability to absorb and execute what he is telling me. Most of them are "little things", but they all add up in the end. "Your slant lines slightly off here and there. Extend the top of that lowercase 's' just a tad over the x line. Make those Spencerian capitals nice and tall, yours are way too short for the style. Your hairlines are thin lines, but not really hairlines, we have to work on that; I need to show you how to use gouache. Arm movement...lock that wrist and fingers and pretend that they don't move...write with your arm. Move the paper, not your arm...keep your forearm in the same place on your desk while writing. Don't deviate...move the paper instead. Don't ever write on a tablet...the height differences in the tablet and the table will screw you all up...put your paper flat on the table with 2 or 3 sheets of paper under it for padding. Watch those slants...they cannot be off even a little bit. You didn't release your nib all the way before beginning that bottom upturn...see that.... hahaha Those little things are like gold nuggets to me. I keep making him wait while I jot down notes...thank goodness he is patient. And he picks these exemplars for me...he said that learning from the "right" exemplar is so important because there are lots of "bad" ones out there. For a wanna-be writing nerd like me, I'll tell ya, I am in hog heaven. hahaha

 

More more more!!!!!

[smk]

 

My first foray into quill making:

 

Question: I'm doing a project for a friend who wants white text on black cardstock. I'll be using a large, broad-edged dip pen (probably a Speedball C-1 or C-2). What type of medium would be best? Gouache? Acrylic? Thanks!

 

 

I would say Gouache simply for the ease of cleaning it from the fixed reservoir nibs like the C-1/C-2 you intend to use. Acrylic would be impossible to remove if it dried in any of the crevices. I typically use Mitchell nibs with Gouache as they are super easy to clean and somewhat forgiving if you don't get the consistency just right. Also, I believe Gouache has better opacity than Acrylics.

 

Give yourself time to practice with with the medium and make sure you are comfortable with the nib, paper and ink/gouache/acrylic combination.

 

S.

[MusinkMan]

I agree with you. There needs to be a relationship between the broadest shade and the finest hairline in each piece. If the hairlines become too fine for the scale of writing, they lose functionality, which is not just to decorate but also to connect and define spaces. The hairlines on the sample supplied are impressively fine AND still functional.

 

Citing the look of Madarasz' work may be a bit of a red herring, too. He became so concerned (and probably rightfully so) that people were poaching his work, he was known to water his ink, hoping to defeat the photolithographers. He also had a pocket full of tricks to make his hairlines appear finer than they were, like the little pip on his minuscule s, which was added to give the illusion that the downstroke (curved second stroke) actually swung all the way back to the upstroke. It typically didn't. The eye simply filled in the gap with the finest line imaginable.

hear hear! I'll tell ya, I'm having a hard time with those pesky hairlines. I just can't make them fine, and certainly not smooth. I'm hoping those things will eventually come to me, but I don't know. I complained about those things to Mr. Jay, and he said that one of the "three elements" is not working for me. The three elements being the nib, the paper, the ink. He said he knows the paper is right (clairfontaine), the nibs are all good ones (Leonardt P, Estr 358, Gillott 303). So he said that he suspects the ink (along with inexperience on my part). He advised me of this, which I will pass along...he said that one of his favorite inks "out of the bottle" is Private Reserve Avacado. I think he is trying to eliminate any problems with the "three elements"...once he is confident that all of those are capable of good results, then he can be confident that the problem is all with me...not with any of the products I'm using.

 

Mickey, it is uncanny that he told me the same things that you said here regarding Louis Madarasz. He loves that Madarasz lowecase s.

He was going over some exemplars and vintage writing examples with me, pointing out different things. He pulled up a Madarasz work, and went over the s, and the 45 degree angle that Madarasz used, and several little nuances that were in there. He made a comment that caused me to chuckle...he said, "If we really nit-pick Madarasz's work, we can find little things that we could take issue with...but...but not with HIM." hahaha He says things very quickly and without much emotion but they are so humorous. He's so matter-of-fact that I have to be on my toes to distinguish when he is serious at times. A really cool guy.

 

Also, he told me that Louis Madarasz was one of the few writers who seldom used guidelines in his work. "Nope. He just grabbed a pen and wrote".

[MusinkMan]

Here's the link for the Private Reserve Avacado if anyone else wants to give it a whirl. As for the color, I asked him if all of them would be equally good. He said probably, but he only has Avacado and he knows that is good so he told me not to buy anything else right now "just in case".

 

http://www.paperinkarts.com/reserve---avo.html

[Mickey]

hear hear! I'll tell ya, I'm having a hard time with those pesky hairlines. I just can't make them fine, and certainly not smooth. I'm hoping those things will eventually come to me, but I don't know. I complained about those things to Mr. Jay, and he said that one of the "three elements" is not working for me. The three elements being the nib, the paper, the ink. He said he knows the paper is right (clairfontaine), the nibs are all good ones (Leonardt P, Estr 358, Gillott 303).

I have an idea for you. Along with the Esterbrook 128s I sent you, I think I also sent you some Seminary Series 451s. (They're about the same size as the 128, but not as sharp nor as flexible.) You might try practicing a bit with those. They don't yield hairlines very easily, but they don't snag easily, either. They're a great nib for gaining confidence. Once you can move the pen rapidly and lightly to get anything resembling a hairline out of that nib, you should be able to get the real thing out the 128 or the Principal.

[Stompie]

 

 

Mickey, I can not recall having seen any of your writing - have you posted pictures?

[Mickey]

 

Mickey, I can not recall having seen any of your writing - have you posted pictures?

Not much, and not recently. (I believe I posted something a year or so ago in a thread concerning everyday handwriting. Ken said something charitable about it showing a variety of influences.) I'm not really a calligrapher, more an informed user with a good eye. As I believe I've mentioned, I write Spencerian with a distinct Italian accent - more characterful than skilled, I'm afraid. I'm presently rehabilitating my italic, so everything looks like a dog's mouth these days.

 

I spend a half hour or so most mornings warming up, but after that it's writing for writing's sake. (I'm working on a novel, which reminds me, I've got to get back to work. Editing: ugh.) So the practice is mostly a holding action. If I have a particularly steady morning, maybe I'll post something, but it will definitely be off topic, i.e., not showing off.

[Stompie]

Thanks Mickey, I thought I had lost more of my marbles maybe and could not remember seeing anything!

 

You sound a bit like me,
I write for the pleasure of it so I do no 'official practicing' per se but work on improving as I go along - it's a long slow process .

 

Hmmm, showing off? Tomorrow I go sit in a hospital waiting room for about 3 hours so I will go into the cafeteria and sit catching up on my pen pal letters - I love the comments people make when they see me with my dippers and ink on the table so yes, I suppose I am a show off - just hoping that someone like Ken does not appear on the scene is all and ask me "Hey, where did that drunken chicken go after it ran across your page?"

Edited September 19, 2013 by Stompie