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Favorite Fp For Copperplate?


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#1 FPaholic

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 02:30

I realize they can't do what dip pens can, but which fountain pens and nibs have you had the best Copperplate experience with?
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#2 MusinkMan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:20

Well, in my limited knowledge I would say that first of all you would obviously want something with a flexible nib. The other component I would look for is, a pen that will produce an extra-fine line when unflexed. So, if it were me, I'd probably look for a vintage flexer with an Extra Fine nib, or at least a Fine. Check out vintage Waterman, Swan, Wahl, etc., pens with 14k flex nibs with a Fine point. You can likely find what you are looking for on FPN classifieds. Look for the seller "Pokermon". He deals in vintage flexers and his prices are very reasonable. I've bought from him multiple times and nothing he sold has ever disappointed me. On top of all that, he is a nice fellow who will go above and beyond to help you. Oh...how much will it cost? You can get hooked up pretty nicely in the $120 - $200 range if you are wanting a nice vintage flex pen. I hope that helps!
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#3 FPaholic

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:30

Well, in my limited knowledge I would say that first of all you would obviously want something with a flexible nib. The other component I would look for is, a pen that will produce an extra-fine line when unflexed. So, if it were me, I'd probably look for a vintage flexer with an Extra Fine nib, or at least a Fine. Check out vintage Waterman, Swan, Wahl, etc., pens with 14k flex nibs with a Fine point. You can likely find what you are looking for on FPN classifieds. Look for the seller "Pokermon". He deals in vintage flexers and his prices are very reasonable. I've bought from him multiple times and nothing he sold has ever disappointed me. On top of all that, he is a nice fellow who will go above and beyond to help you. Oh...how much will it cost? You can get hooked up pretty nicely in the $120 - $200 range if you are wanting a nice vintage flex pen. I hope that helps!

Thanks so much, good deal! My Waterman 52V Red Ripple might do the trick once I'm actually able to do hairlines (you can see pics under the Waterman Forum, posted maybe a week ago).
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#4 Mickey

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 18:08

My recommendation would be any XXF pen, whether it is flexible or not. Spencerian is an attractive hand, even without the shades. Considering all the downsides and difficulties of doing shaded Spencerian with an FP, I think it would be smarter to concentrate on proper letter form, flow, and spacing, and reserve the shaded version of the hand for when you have access to the most appropriate tools.

The Platinum / Nakaya F, EF, and UEF points are excellent for mono-line Spencer.

But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#5 MusinkMan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:20

I think they are wanting to learn Copperplate though, not Spence?
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#6 FPaholic

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 19:38

Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!
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#7 MusinkMan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 20:16

Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


I'm just in the process of learning too...but to give you an idea of "copperplate-ish" work from a fountain pen, here is a pic.
A FP will not approach the quality of a pointed dip pen, but still an awful lot of fun. And that's all I'm in it for anyway...the fun and my love of old vintage pens of yesteryear. I only have about 6 vintage pens so far, but I'm working on that. LOL!

...And its always fun to hear your friends and family say, "Wow, you can write like THAT???"

Your Red Ripple is beautiful. :puddle: I want one soooo bad! Maybe one day soon... Good luck!


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#8 Mickey

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 21:10

Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


Sorry, I had a brain-bleep, but the same advice applies. It's tough to get the shades even close to correct with an FP. (I started out with Copperplate using a flexible FP.)

That said, if you're willing to turn your paper sideways and sit side saddle to the desk, most 'soft nibs' will give enough weight on the downstrokes to give a pleasant suggestion of what would be possible with a dip pen. The shades won't be full bodied, but they will be sufficient to give your handwriting the right Copperplate flavor. I have a Nakaya with a SF nib which does a very serviceable job in this fashion. The writing doesn't scream Copperplate (or Spencerian), but it does honor the weighting conventions and (thanks be...) doesn't look like the Palmer of my youth.

But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#9 Ken Fraser

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:11

I realize they can't do what dip pens can, but which fountain pens and nibs have you had the best Copperplate experience with?

I know that it's not exactly calligraphy, but this was written with a vintage Waterman 92 fountain pen. Far more difficult than with a dip nib in an oblique penholder.

Ken


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#10 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:46


Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


I'm just in the process of learning too...but to give you an idea of "copperplate-ish" work from a fountain pen, here is a pic.
A FP will not approach the quality of a pointed dip pen, but still an awful lot of fun. And that's all I'm in it for anyway...the fun and my love of old vintage pens of yesteryear. I only have about 6 vintage pens so far, but I'm working on that. LOL!

...And its always fun to hear your friends and family say, "Wow, you can write like THAT???"

Your Red Ripple is beautiful. :puddle: I want one soooo bad! Maybe one day soon... Good luck!


Posted Image


I'm glad you enjoyed the Red Ripple, because I LOVE your Copperplate and can't believe you're new at this! Well done! I, like you, am not learning Copperplate in order to perfect calligraphy, but instead to learn my favorite hand with my favorite thing to do - use my Fountain Pens!
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#11 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:56


I realize they can't do what dip pens can, but which fountain pens and nibs have you had the best Copperplate experience with?

I know that it's not exactly calligraphy, but this was written with a vintage Waterman 92 fountain pen. Far more difficult than with a dip nib in an oblique penholder.

Ken



Thanks Ken! Not easy to see how difficult is is when you make it look so EASY! :ltcapd:
Like I was saying above, I'm trying to learn my favorite hand with Fountain Pens, as you might consider them the basis of my enjoyment, so as for the eventual accuracy of my hand it may take more effort but it sure is worth it!
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#12 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:00


Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


Sorry, I had a brain-bleep, but the same advice applies. It's tough to get the shades even close to correct with an FP. (I started out with Copperplate using a flexible FP.)

That said, if you're willing to turn your paper sideways and sit side saddle to the desk, most 'soft nibs' will give enough weight on the downstrokes to give a pleasant suggestion of what would be possible with a dip pen. The shades won't be full bodied, but they will be sufficient to give your handwriting the right Copperplate flavor. I have a Nakaya with a SF nib which does a very serviceable job in this fashion. The writing doesn't scream Copperplate (or Spencerian), but it does honor the weighting conventions and (thanks be...) doesn't look like the Palmer of my youth.

Ha! A brain-bleep? What's that? I can't remember right now!
I don't own a Nakaya, are they very flexible? I feel that my Waterman 52V F has the best flex for the job, but I'm concerned that an extra fine nib with good flex would do better. But watching Ken's vid I noticed its in the stroke and twist, not just the nib.
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#13 Mickey

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:53



Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


Sorry, I had a brain-bleep, but the same advice applies. It's tough to get the shades even close to correct with an FP. (I started out with Copperplate using a flexible FP.)

That said, if you're willing to turn your paper sideways and sit side saddle to the desk, most 'soft nibs' will give enough weight on the downstrokes to give a pleasant suggestion of what would be possible with a dip pen. The shades won't be full bodied, but they will be sufficient to give your handwriting the right Copperplate flavor. I have a Nakaya with a SF nib which does a very serviceable job in this fashion. The writing doesn't scream Copperplate (or Spencerian), but it does honor the weighting conventions and (thanks be...) doesn't look like the Palmer of my youth.

Ha! A brain-bleep? What's that? I can't remember right now!
I don't own a Nakaya, are they very flexible? I feel that my Waterman 52V F has the best flex for the job, but I'm concerned that an extra fine nib with good flex would do better. But watching Ken's vid I noticed its in the stroke and twist, not just the nib.


Unmodified Nakayas are not very flexible, not even semi-flexible, but the soft F and soft M will give a hint of weight on the downstrokes with a little added pressure, some from increased ink flow, some from tine spread. As I said, this will provides only a hint of the style, nothing one could rightly call Copperplate. If you wish to do more heavily shaded writing, say in the style Ken demonstrated, the Waterman would be far superior. I do not know how much you would gain, however, from finding and fitting an EF nib - probably not very much.

You're correct. It's more than just mashing the nib into the page. On the curved strokes the barrel of the pen needs to turn subtly or the tines will chatter. Ken undoubtedly has his method (though by now I doubt he needs to think about it), but I feel the shade stroke mostly as a squeeze, the middle finger squeezing sooner to initiate clockwise curves, the index finger for anti-clockwise. (With an oblique holder, you can see the back of the flange rise when you squeeze.)

But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#14 MusinkMan

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:39

FPaholic...listen to Caliken and Mickey. Caliken is Ken Fraser, a renowned Master Penman, author, and world recognized expert on the subject. Mickey doesn't show much of his work, but he obviously is uber advanced in his own right. Me, I'm just a hobbiest who is trying to learn a few things from these guys. So by all means, don't confuse my piddling home-taught hackwork with these guys. They are the real deal. Me...um...not so much. :embarrassed_smile:

PS...Nakaya pens are very expensive...just giving you fair warning if you are thinking about looking into those.

Edited by MusinkMan, 10 February 2013 - 04:41.

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#15 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:07




Correct. No biggy - still something to put in back for future use!


Sorry, I had a brain-bleep, but the same advice applies. It's tough to get the shades even close to correct with an FP. (I started out with Copperplate using a flexible FP.)

That said, if you're willing to turn your paper sideways and sit side saddle to the desk, most 'soft nibs' will give enough weight on the downstrokes to give a pleasant suggestion of what would be possible with a dip pen. The shades won't be full bodied, but they will be sufficient to give your handwriting the right Copperplate flavor. I have a Nakaya with a SF nib which does a very serviceable job in this fashion. The writing doesn't scream Copperplate (or Spencerian), but it does honor the weighting conventions and (thanks be...) doesn't look like the Palmer of my youth.

Ha! A brain-bleep? What's that? I can't remember right now!
I don't own a Nakaya, are they very flexible? I feel that my Waterman 52V F has the best flex for the job, but I'm concerned that an extra fine nib with good flex would do better. But watching Ken's vid I noticed its in the stroke and twist, not just the nib.


Unmodified Nakayas are not very flexible, not even semi-flexible, but the soft F and soft M will give a hint of weight on the downstrokes with a little added pressure, some from increased ink flow, some from tine spread. As I said, this will provides only a hint of the style, nothing one could rightly call Copperplate. If you wish to do more heavily shaded writing, say in the style Ken demonstrated, the Waterman would be far superior. I do not know how much you would gain, however, from finding and fitting an EF nib - probably not very much.

You're correct. It's more than just mashing the nib into the page. On the curved strokes the barrel of the pen needs to turn subtly or the tines will chatter. Ken undoubtedly has his method (though by now I doubt he needs to think about it), but I feel the shade stroke mostly as a squeeze, the middle finger squeezing sooner to initiate clockwise curves, the index finger for anti-clockwise. (With an oblique holder, you can see the back of the flange rise when you squeeze.)

Noted. Thank you for this detailed info - beginning with as many good habits as I can get. Really appreciate it!
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#16 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:16

FPaholic...listen to Caliken and Mickey. Caliken is Ken Fraser, a renowned Master Penman, author, and world recognized expert on the subject. Mickey doesn't show much of his work, but he obviously is uber advanced in his own right. Me, I'm just a hobbiest who is trying to learn a few things from these guys. So by all means, don't confuse my piddling home-taught hackwork with these guys. They are the real deal. Me...um...not so much. :embarrassed_smile:

PS...Nakaya pens are very expensive...just giving you fair warning if you are thinking about looking into those.

Ha! Heard. I recognize the expertise you speak of and will accept your humility but your input is as valid and appreciated as is any others.

:thumbup:
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#17 Ken Fraser

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:13

Caliken is Ken Fraser, a renowned Master Penman, author, and world recognized expert on the subject.


Whilst it is very gratifying to have one’s work described in such glowing terms, I feel that I may be on shaky
ground, here, and I have no wish to offend anyone.

From the FPN rules -
You may not, in connection with your use of the Fountain Pen Network, impersonate any individual
or misrepresent your affiliation with any individual or group.


To the best of my knowledge, the accolade “Master Penman” is exclusive to members of The International
Association of Master Penmen, Engrossers, and Teachers of Handwriting” (IAMPETH) and election to
the “Master Penman Society” which was ceated in 2001, is by fellow members of the Society.

I have no such formal title or accolade, nor have I ever sought one. I have always worked alone, with no contact
with other calligraphers.

However, I reiterate that it's wonderful to have one's work appreciated, and I am grateful for your comments, MusinkMan.

.....your input is as valid and appreciated as is any others.


Well said!

Ken

Edited by caliken, 10 February 2013 - 21:25.

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#18 Mickey

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:43

FPaholic...listen to Caliken and Mickey. Caliken is Ken Fraser, a renowned Master Penman, author, and world recognized expert on the subject. Mickey doesn't show much of his work, but he obviously is uber advanced in his own right.


In the spirit of Ken's disclaimer / clarification, I should say I'm not so much 'uber advanced' as much as 'uber persistent' and, when my meds are working, better than average at discovering how things work, the latter trait a logical result of first exhausting all the ways which don't.

But I believe that since my life began

The most I've had is just a talent to abuse.

Hey ho, if love were all.

 

With apologies to Noel Coward


#19 FPaholic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 16:13

In the spirit of Ken's disclaimer / clarification, I should say I'm not so much 'uber advanced' as much as 'uber persistent' and, when my meds are working, better than average at discovering how things work, the latter trait a logical result of first exhausting all the ways which don't.


Okay this disclaimer is only allowed because it tickles me to death, but one more and I'M going to have to start bragging about MY work!

You know - the movement exercises on lined paper Posted Image I'm really getting quite excellent at those [snicker].


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#20 MusinkMan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 00:48

Ken, I'm sorry for making it necessary for you to write a disclaimer. I know about IAMPETH, and their order of Master Penman who write their own certificates & such. I didn't mean to associate you with that organization...but honestly, I think you could easily match/surpass any and all of them. :thumbup:

Again, sorry for the perceived misnomer. You are indeed a master penman (uncapitalized, and not affiliated with IAMPETH). IAMPETH has no claims over descriptive words. LOL!!! Watching you manipulate the pointed pen so effortlessly is a thing of beauty to behold. You'd better watch out for me...I'm stealing your writing chops! hahahaha!!!! Yeah, right...that will be the day! Honestly though...the tips you've given me, and the little things I've picked up from your videos have revived my interest in the dip pen. Even today I was having a go at practicing. It's getting easier...my hands are handling the pen in a more "automatic" way now, without me having to consciously think of every little thing. And...and...and...I didn't 'sproing-spray' a single time over 3 pages of practice text. Yayyy me!

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#21 Ken Fraser

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:29

Ken, I'm sorry for making it necessary for you to write a disclaimer....You are indeed a master penman (uncapitalized, and not affiliated with IAMPETH). IAMPETH has no claims over descriptive words. LOL!!!


Absolutely no apology is necessary. I just wanted to put a little 'disclaimer' in writing and, having done so, can move on. Whilst I agree that IAMPETH has no claims over descriptive words, some people can be very touchy about some things.

Whilst it's for others to decide if it's appropriate or not, I'm delighted to humbly :embarrassed_smile: accept your unofficial title - in lower case, if necessary!!

Ken

Sorry we're off topic, but I had to reply.

Edited by caliken, 11 February 2013 - 08:33.

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#22 mvarela

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:14

Ken,
continuing with this off-topic thread... I'm a complete newb in all things calligraphic, but it doesn't take much to realize that your work is outstanding. So, I would propose to (un)officially award you the title of FPN's Outstanding Penman :)
Truly, your posts have been a continuous source of inspiration since I first joined the FPN some months ago, and I'd like to thank you for this!

Posted Image


Cheers,
Martin

Edited by smk, 11 February 2013 - 15:44.


#23 FPaholic

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 16:51

I've decided that my Waterman 52V will be the best of my current tools to practice my Copperplate with. Thanks for everyone's input! Will gladly accept advice in the usage of a FP in this craft.
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#24 Ken Fraser

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:38

Ken,
continuing with this off-topic thread... I'm a complete newb in all things calligraphic, but it doesn't take much to realize that your work is outstanding. So, I would propose to (un)officially award you the title of FPN's Outstanding Penman :)
Truly, your posts have been a continuous source of inspiration since I first joined the FPN some months ago, and I'd like to thank you for this!


Thanks for your comments, FPaholic & mvarela.......much appreciated.

Ken

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