Sheaffer Balance Oversize Question

[Lazard 20]

Other examples, these from my collection, which are verified 146 mm. with imprint PAT´D - PAT. PENDING and shorter, about 138 mm. approx. for PAT. D-78,795 imprint.

 

http://s23.postimg.org/ady9pafsb/146_138_2.jpg

 

 

 

http://s21.postimg.org/md3ukd1dz/146_138_1.jpg

Edited May 31, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

A less known Balance´s imprint.

 

146 mm. and DEC.10.12-JAN.27-OCT.20-NOV.24.14, typical imprint of flat top.

 

http://s15.postimg.org/idz0i0623/146_mm_Imprint_flat_top.jpg

Edited June 1, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

We have seen photos with imprint "PATENTED" and 146 mm length. Here we see the same imprint with shorter and more rounded barrel from which we could infer that was with this imprint when the balance shortened length.

 

http://s27.postimg.org/w3c1bimub/146_138_3.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/ku9gsxmph/136_mm_PATENTED.jpg

Edited June 6, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

Well, in previous posts we saw what was a real Balance "oversize" in the late '20s and first half of '30. Today we will see what was the Balance "oversize" in the second half of the '30s and the beginning of '40.

Often we observed as the term "oversize" is used with impropriety in these models. In fact is rarely used its real name which, if there aren´t comparative images, this can lead to misleading.

So isn´t strange to see this qualifier "oversize" accompanying those full length models whitout the larger diameter as Statesman or Soverign of this era, when the "oversize" has much more volume and name own, "PREMIER", and very specific dimensions, so no reason to skip it unless you want stay ignoring or confused.

This comparative photo could help for those seeking an authentic Sheaffer oversize laminated; they must look for 140 mm long and 15 mm. aprox diameter in the cap band.

 

http://s28.postimg.org/pz7a8xzd9/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_3.jpg

Other images of Sheaffer'S Premier

http://s10.postimg.org/byzb4esx5/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_4.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/hoeb1e185/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_2.jpg

http://s2.postimg.org/reyfmfdtl/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_1.jpg

Footnote. The models used comparatively not represent all their possible variants (e.g., Skyboy shorter).

Edited March 19, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Note that "Premier" was not applied to the oversize model with regular trim until 1938, and that there are other oversize models, such as the Autograph version, that are not properly called "Premier." So, the use of the descriptive term "oversize" for pens with these largest dimensions is very useful, and I wholly approve of its use.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Also note that the numbers shown that appear to be part of the model names or designations (e.g. "Premier 1000") are not, in fact, part of those models' names. They are merely prices, which were lightly stamped on some items, though they are often mistakenly believed to be model designations of some sort.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Also note that the numbers shown that appear to be part of the model names or designations (e.g. "Premier 1000") are not, in fact, part of those models' names. They are merely prices, which were lightly stamped on some items, though they are often mistakenly believed to be model designations of some sort.

 

--Daniel

 

At the top of the photo are the names as they are, without price. On the other hand, in the literal description you can read Statesman, Sovereign, "PREMIER" and Premier without price two times more. Below the photo I added the price in cents, that can appear in a barrel, next to the name so the reader will be easier to distinguish their barrels and their oversizes or not. In any case I appreciate your interest in avoiding misunderstandings.

 

Note that "Premier" was not applied to the oversize model with regular trim until 1938, and that there are other oversize models, such as the Autograph version, that are not properly called "Premier." So, the use of the descriptive term "oversize" for pens with these largest dimensions is very useful, and I wholly approve of its use.

 

--Daniel

 

Totally agree with your clarification, the Sheaffer'S fpens have names since 1937 some of them and 1938 -25 anniversary- others, previously would be called by an alphanumeric code. To explain this oversize model striated I have adopted the name that Sheaffer´ finally ended up adopting.

 

I also agree that the use of the descriptive term "oversize" as very useful... but only when there is an oversize, so I have gave approximate measurements.

 

On the other hand:

 

1) "Autograph" is not a Sheaffer´S model name of the time that concerns us. Maybe you've wanted to refer to Heritage Autograph model (o determined code into DeLuxe Autograph line before 1938 if you want). Isn't it?

 

2) Note that there are "Autograph" not oversize.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

I think I see your confusion; let me explain. Autograph was a trim level that was applied to many of Sheaffer's Balance models; there were Autograph versions of pens of various sizes and configurations, from Petite to oversize. If you take a look at the catalogs and brochures from the '30s and early '40s, you'll see some of these Autograph versions. As I wrote, I was referring to "other oversize models, such as the Autograph version." Note that I did not state the "Autograph" was a "model name," though I suppose if you read my post hurriedly, you might have made that mistake.

 

--Daniel

Edited March 19, 2015 by kirchh

[kirchh]

Also note that your picture gives the misimpression that the Statesman and the Valiant/military clip Skyboy have different diameters. They do not.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

I see your confusión, let me explain; You have been very ambiguous -by not to mention the name , nor adequate code nor measures-... and very comprehensive with your own ambiguity or inaccuracy talking about "oversize model" to which you are referring, when others are quoting name, dimensions and price.

 

What would you have said if I had written that for distinguishing an oversize you must see that it is an oversize?

 

On the other hand, note that I did not state the "Premier" was the only balance oversize but a "real oversize" or an "authentic Sheaffer oversize laminated" or "they must look for 140 mm long and 15 mm. aprox diameter in the cap band" without citing model. I suppose if you read my post hurriedly, you might have made a mistake.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

Also note that your picture gives the misimpression that the Statesman and the Valiant/military clip Skyboy have different diameters. They do not.

 

--Daniel

 

Written information in my post is clear: both the same diameter (you can read 13-13,1 mm diameter).

 

I suppose if you read my post calmly, you might have saved your comment.

[Ron Z]

<eyes glaze over>

[Lazard 20]

Precisely my children have given me today an Nikon DSLR camera. I hope the lens will be more accurate, and with less distortion, than my current compact camera .

Edited March 19, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

Written information in my post is clear: both the same diameter (you can read 13-13,1 mm diameter).

 

I suppose if you read my post calmly, you might have saved your comment.

 

Maybe you're looking at a different post than the one I'm reading. The post I'm referring to gives the diameter of the Skyboy and Valiant as 13.1mm and the diameter of the Statesman as 13mm. 13.1 is, of course, not the same as 13.

 

So, I'm clarifying for readers who might be misled into thinking that the Statesman is thinner than the Skyboy and Valiant based on the dimensions that you supply.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I see your confusión, let me explain; You have been very ambiguous -by not to mention the name , nor adequate code nor measures-... and very comprehensive with your own ambiguity or inaccuracy talking about "oversize model" to which you are referring, when others are quoting name, dimensions and price.

 

What would you have said if I had written that for distinguishing an oversize you must see that it is an oversize?

 

On the other hand, note that I did not state the "Premier" was the only balance oversize but a "real oversize" or an "authentic Sheaffer oversize laminated" or "they must look for 140 mm long and 15 mm. aprox diameter in the cap band" without citing model. I suppose if you read my post hurriedly, you might have made a mistake.

 

I don't really understand this post. In any event, everything I posted was accurate, and I made none of the assertions that you seem to be denying in your final paragraph, so I don't know what any of that means.

 

Oversize Balances are easily determined by their girth, which is shared with no other sized set of models.

 

--Daniel

[FredRydr]

Perhaps we Sheaffermen need an official girth diameter gauge when trawling for Balances, sort of like the gauge Maine lobstermen use when sizing their lobsters.

 

Fred

Edited March 21, 2015 by FredRydr

[Lazard 20]

 

Oversize Balances are easily determined by their girth, which is shared with no other sized set of models.

 

--Daniel

 

If the model of greater girth of the "Autograph" line has own name, or code before name, when you expressed the vague "oversize Autograph" instead of its correct name, you were contributing to the confusion, precisely something totally opposite to the direction of my post. This is why I found your post inappropriate.

 

You don´t understand my post perhaps because it is not written for you. You know very well that is a Sheaffer'S Balance oversize. The post, prices and measures (tolerences of 4 thousandths of an inch by normal Radite shrinkage included ) are provided to those who now begin to distinguish one Oversize from others "Full Lenght" or they only look for the barrel price because in fountain pen commerce often Sheaffer´S Balance oversizes are labeled wrong (e.g., click here or, probably by the proportions, this one too, click here, that looks more like a Excellence Autograph than a really oversized Heritage Autograph. Do you understand now because your vague term "oversize Autograph" can lead to confusion and why I do not seem appropiate this vague term in mouth of a Sheaffer´S specialist as you are?) and they could fall into the mistake, especially when several may have the same price in barrel (barrels of Premier, Statesman, Skyboy and Valiant could have identical number or Excellence and Heritage, so now you understand why I put prices after name?), of paying more than they should, thinking they are acquiring an oversize when it is not.

 

So I leave this image here as a comparative guide, with tolerance mentioned, for those who are seeking an oversized of these years:

 

http://s3.postimg.org/910ukc8rn/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_3.jpg

Edited March 21, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Perhaps we Sheaffermen need an official girth diameter gauge when trawling for Balances, sort of like the gauge Maine lobstermen use when sizing their lobsters.

 

Fred

 

I've been working on something like that, actually.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

 

If the model of greater girth of the "Autograph" line has own name, or code before name, when you expressed the vague "oversize Autograph" instead of its correct name, you were contributing to the confusion, precisely something totally opposite to the direction of my post. This is why I found your post inappropriate.

 

You don´t understand my post perhaps because it is not written for you. You know very well that is a Sheaffer'S Balance oversize. The post, prices and measures (tolerences of 4 thousandths of an inch by normal Radite shrinkage included ) are provided to those who now begin to distinguish one Oversize from others "Full Lenght" or they only look for the barrel price because in fountain pen commerce often Sheaffer´S Balance oversizes are labeled wrong (e.g., click here or, probably by the proportions, this one too, click here, that looks more like a Excellence Autograph than a really oversized Heritage Autograph. Do you understand now because your vague term "oversize Autograph" can lead to confusion and why I do not seem appropiate this vague term in mouth of a Sheaffer´S specialist as you are?) and they could fall into the mistake, especially when several may have the same price in barrel (barrels of Premier, Statesman, Skyboy and Valiant could have identical number or Excellence and Heritage, so now you understand why I put prices after name?), of paying more than they should, thinking they are acquiring an oversize when it is not.

 

So I leave this image here as a comparative guide, with tolerance mentioned, for those who are seeking an oversized of these years:

 

http://s3.postimg.org/910ukc8rn/Sheaffer_Premier_Lazard_3.jpg

 

Note that you quote me using the term "oversize Autograph," (you wrote, "your vague term 'oversize Autograph"') but I never used that term. Please don't place text in quotation marks and attribute it to me if I did not, in fact, write that text as quoted.

 

Of course, oversize Autograph isn't "vague" at all. It unambiguously identifies a particular class of Balance. (Note that the term is also loosely applied to non-Autograph oversize pens with solid gold cap bands without causing significant confusion.) Also, there are oversize striated Balances with fancy cap bands that were more expensive than $10.00, and so might have a different price stamp than "1000".

 

Your picture again indicates that the Skyboy and Valiant have a larger diameter than the Statesman, but that's not correct. All three pens are of the standard girth. I suggest you correct that by using the same dimension for all three pens; you can add a tolerance indication if you like.

 

And, once again, all that needs to be known is the diameter when adjudging whether a Balance is oversized.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

1. And, once again, all that needs to be known is the diameter when adjudging whether a Balance is oversized.

 

2. Your picture again indicates that the Skyboy and Valiant have a larger diameter than the Statesman, but that's not correct. All three pens are of the standard girth. I suggest you correct that by using the same dimension for all three pens; you can add a tolerance indication if you like.

 

3. Also, there are oversize striated Balances with fancy cap bands that were more expensive than $10.00, and so might have a different price stamp than "1000".

 

4 Note that you quote me using the term "oversize Autograph," (you wrote, "your vague term 'oversize Autograph"') but I never used that term. Please don't place text in quotation marks and attribute it to me if I did not, in fact, write that text as quoted.

 

--Daniel

 

1. Indeed, so once again:

 

- I provided accurate measuring, 14.8 mm diameter, taken on my real fountain pens, and,

 

- I wrote: This comparative photo could help for those seeking an authentic Sheaffer oversize laminated; they must look for 140 mm long and 15 mm. aprox diameter in the cap band. And,

 

- I showed a comparative picture with other models non oversize to avoid confusion.

 

2. When you work out your gauge diameter, you will do it as you please. Now, about my photo, your suggest isn´t accepted. These are real measurements taken in my fpens as its have come to me. FPN users will understand what mean 4 mils of inch.

 

3. Would you have any oversize barrel of this time with fancy cap and price stamp to show us?

 

Note that there are also without price stamped on barrel, hence the usefulness of the comparative and visual guidance provided.

 

4. Remember, my post was for to distinguish oversize of other models as full length for example, so no problem, the text as quoted; you wrote: "... there are other oversize models, such as the Autograph version".

 

Sentence which I consider inappropriate in this post, more precise, because you sentece is vague for lack of name -or model code- and imprecise by absence of dimensions especially when in the Autograph line there are model full lenght no oversize that many people confuses as you has seen.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Lazard 20