Fun outside the visible spectrum

[a11en]

Hi Southpaw!

 

The question we're trying to figure out here is about LED's (which make a nice easy pocket-light). I've been using a nice fluorescent blacklight for ages now with blue-ghost. Works quite well for me (you have to watch it, though, some papers fluoresce almost as well as blue-ghost under black-light)...

 

Here's a link to the blacklight I purchased (at a local menards). The key was getting a Fluorescent light, and *not* an incandenscent light. Incandescents just don't output UV very well. They heat up quickly, and are generally crappy as black-lights. Fluorescents emit in the UV quite nicely, and with the right coating/glass, you have a pretty strong black-light. I use mine as a replacement bulb in my desk light.

 

FEIT Electric Blacklight Bulb replacement

 

Hope this helps a bit!

-Allen

[Bill]

Not to ask a stupid question, but are you sure the "forensic light" was actually working? :blink:

Actually one of the crimescopes in the lab is broken ($12K paperweight) but that is not one I used.

 

Regarding the frequency range: two of the devices I used are centered on a single wavelength. The one with the LEDs is designed primarily for field technicians processing latent fingerprints with fluorescent powders. The higher-end scopes permit dialing in filters for different wavelengths, depending on the need. They work with a variety of substances. I work with the imaging end of it so my knowledge of the chemistry is limited. We also have a UV imager that will reach down to about 225nm (the limits of the Nikon 105mm quartz lens), but it is in another building right now. The REAL heavy tools are two building away in the state crime lab where an exact frequency could be dialed in.

 

Luminol does require an alternate light source to be viewed properly.

 

Another chemical that is related to flourscein may replace Luminol someday but is controversial in some labs. About four years ago a peer and I were sent in as consultants on a week-old murder scene where the suspect had tried to clean up all the blood. The local CSI types used Luminol without much success. My partner had been doing some research with the fluorescein which was still experimental at the time and he had the only sample of it "in the wild." When viewed with the correct light source, it showed blood patterns that the Luminol couldn't find. It is easier to photograph and is non-carcenogenic, too.

 

BTW, fluorescent UV photography is not difficult if you have all the right pieces parts and the steps in order. Reflective UV is tougher. In fact, all commercial camera lenses today have UV coatings that prevent reaching much into the UV range. AFAIK, the best such lens is the Nikon 60mm macro which reaches down to about 385nm if I remember right. Otherwise, a quartz lens has to be used. And please, don't put a UV/haze filter on the lens.

 

Bill

[Eternally Noodling]

A quick note to Nathan- please know that this is in no way an attempt to reverse engineer your amazing work- it's only to try and determine excitation wavelengths!!

It's not an issue. A few companies have asked me if they could "buy" certain formulas - and it is almost impossible to get them to replicate what is done. I won't show them in person - that is out of the question. You have to keep one thing in mind...I'm outside the box - trained in finance, management, human resources, accounting....and a pen collector/ink guy since the blizzard of 1978. I am not a chemist...well...not a published one in the official university press mediums. It is to a tremendous degree trial and error - and lucky instinct. What they are asking for is the documentation of chance discovery - not a detailed process that can be replicated under the rules set by the powers that be...

 

Example...radio reactive inks and radar? I've been working with it isolated by a concrete wall, etc...except when it comes to cell phones/cordless phones. It has a "fade rate" similar to the cheaper inks out there that fade within a day or two of exposure to sunlight (those faded ink notations that were placed too close to a window at your office) - only it fades and begins to weaken in the face of radar within as little as 30 min. I've been figuring out how to strengthen it...but bear in mind this is always trial and error...and instinct gained from other experiments or knowledge of antique inks/butcher dyes/textile dyes...etc... Perhaps it can be used for a "mood" mousepad when one has a wireless mouse....or imprints on the wall that change colors in response to a mild activation by a cellphone type device? Just novelties - but who knows...somebody at DARPA might call and tell me to shut up! lol

 

Ink can be made from cholesterol and almonds or soybeans....one reacts to static electricity and the other changes color under different light sources more dramatically than anything yet found (for instance, bright yellow under a sodium bulb yet bright blue under a halogen, purple under a blacklight, etc...). Another is used only as a brush ink or dip pen ink and reacts to the temperature of the human body - so each morning one can find out if they are in the obituary column or still around.

[Eternally Noodling]

It's quite possible that the forensic lights (if LED's) are specific to luminol excitation etc.- actually, its' weird, it looks like luminol doesn't require excitation? Does it really glow without light?

Greg Clark was sent a sample of an "engineered material" as I call it...he said his brother might want to have more made for use in a car coating - and thus a light emitting car charged with simple fluorescent shop bulbs (1/2 hour lasts for 14 hours - at the highest lumens emission rate known...but keep in mind, not measured with the best equipment..yet it was so off the charts it was amazing). It would be the only such car in the nation - alas...law enforcement might require a permit for something that looked like a streak of lightning going down our highways...if it were allowed at all. Rubber necking?

 

Experiences with this almost had me involved with law enforcement in a different way: a hot night, compressed air...and a little bit became airborn and settled on my face, forearms..and hands. I picked up the mail at 2 am and every dog in the neighborhood that could see me reacted by yelping and running away. Upon my return I noticed what the dogs had seen: a floating blue face, arms, and hands moving about in the darkness.

 

Might be good for Halloween? It makes a gorgeous resin for silver overlays though...

 

This image is taken in 100% darness...no black light...no flash. Only good as a dip pen ink or brush ink though...it hates plastic feeds. :bonk:

[Mocksy]

I remember the blizzard of 78. I was in Rhode Island in Grade 3 failing to learn good handwriting. Great sledding and lots of snow days. Of course at the time I had no idea the snow was setting in motion a chain of events that would intersect my life 29 years later and lead to some nifty pictures of pens and a light technical discussion of fluorescence, electroluminescence, and forensics. Funny how things work out.

 

And to those of you that work in a crime lab or are otherwise serving the community as noble officers of the law: any questions I may have asked about color changing cars were purely hypothetical and were, of course, asked on behalf of a friend.

 

PS: If you make an ink that could be different colors under different types of light... I would definitely be in to that.

Edited February 9, 2007 by Mocksy

[guitarman19853]

Is it possible to make an IR responsive ink?

[Anne-Sophie]

The Vista and Ghost ink combo is really great!

[a11en]

Ha ha ha! That's truly awesome, Nathan! Love the ideas!! Excellent stuff.

 

I do have a small update. It turns out the laser-lab manager actually is an FP user! He had a Lamy clipped to his shirt. ha ha ha. So, I'm introducing him to your inks, Nathan.

 

We played a bit with the lasers- here's what we found out (not much of a revelation- we did this just with what we had at the moment).

 

UV-lamp (nice fluorsecent version)- I believe it's peak was at about 365nm (common I believe)... great visibility.

 

We then tried it with a fairly green-laser, as well as a tunable Argon Ion Laser, 515, 488, 476, 450 nm wavelengths. We pumped up the power a bit, and only really had good results with the lowest 450 nm with a pretty high power setting. So, it's fair to say that 450 which is a pretty blue/violet light, doesn't get the job done. This stuff definitely likes the UV spectrum. We didn't have a UV lightsource setup, but I'll ask him about doing so another day. I'm going to bring the ink in for him, and give him a sample to play with I think. He uses various fluids as standard samples in the Raman Spectroscopy machine... so he might be able to use the ink for that purpose as well.

 

So, not a real test, but it shows you want to be in the UV for sure.

 

And I found another FP-user friend. ha ha ha. Never knew he used 'em.

-Allen

 

ps- Nathan- so the Radiation sensitive inks- do they lose their color under radiation, or do they luminesce under radiation? Love the story about the glowing head and arms! :roflmho:

[Eternally Noodling]

Is it possible to make an IR responsive ink?

Reflecting a dark room light? Or reflecting a heat lamp or heat radiant energy?

 

There is - but costly, an obnoxious color - and believed to be worth at most 6 bottles sold worldwide. It has not behaved well under a variety of tests and might not be worth the effort to perfect it. Do you know of uses for such an ink that people might find compelling enough to buy more than 6 bottles?

[Eternally Noodling]

ps- Nathan- so the Radiation sensitive inks- do they lose their color under radiation, or do they luminesce under radiation? Love the story about the glowing head and arms! :roflmho:

do they lose their color under radiation, or do they luminesce under radiation? >>

 

Both. Cell phone and wireless devices cause swirls that have a brief memory of a few seconds and can repeat as long as the dye is reactive/"alive". Reminds me of iron filings following a magnet under a sheet of paper. Radar....makes it go pure green - solid green...then vanish back to black when turned off. Microwave has an effect as well, though harder to observe through the screen. Sort of jade swirls in a sea of black. It will work in a pen though - once it is durable. (Tangent...It is also one of those marvelous substances that will NOT be able to work in a ball pen - those are the best dyes, the ball pen killers...the very potential to give a fountain pen a complete advantage over a ball pen for a particular utility is the holy grail. Roller balls are a bit more of a challenge...because they often work just like a fountain pen (such as the piston filling rollers from the 1950s in my earlier photos on this thread). Though disposable rollers have marginal utility and contribute to landfills - refillable rollers have been around since WW II and many vintage models still work just fine to this day!)

 

Some of it dies very fast, other batches last 30+ minutes. It will make everyone very angry if I were to let something out that worked 5 minutes for some and 30 min for others. I also don't see the value until it has the ability to last as long as firefly...and hopefully as long as the bulletproof blue ghost. Nobody would buy an ink that fades that fast reflecting the energy force it is bought to reflect! lol...a couple people keep saying "never post on that board until you already have the ink done and in the stores ready to go!" Alas, I have found that NOTHING beats getting a concept out in public for finding new uses - or if an idea will even float. If it looks useful...it may very well be useful...and somebody out there might KNOW exactly how society can best utilize a new product/concept better than you can ever hope to know due to their unique perspective and divergent position. Chaos theory meeting Schumpeter in ink.

[a11en]

Excellent stuff! Sounds very very interesting- quite cool.

 

Do you know if it will react to simple magnetism? For instance- if you write on some paper, and roll it around a powercable for a computer- can you see the reaction?

 

I'm going to have to think about unique uses... I'm immediately thinking wifi type stuff... but I need to think more.

 

Great ideas, Nathan. Pretty cool stuff. I agree- I think the fountain-pen is just an awesome tool. To have killer inks for fountain-pens just make things even more fun.

 

Big cheers for all the tinkering!!!

-Allen

[JRodriguez]

Wow ... I just had to say about the picture - that is seriously cool!

[HDoug]

Do you know of uses for such an ink that people might find compelling enough to buy more than 6 bottles?

 

A "Limited Edition" ink! The one with diamonds on the bottle cap! Let's see, at $100,000 a bottle, six bottles would be...

[AndreaDuni]

Hi guys,

as I saw these pics of the Blue Ghost I had to buy it, and I've looked around Italy to find it, and I found it but not in Italy. I bought 3 bottles of the blue ghost and I found 2 Pilot demonstrator with gilded trims and a 22kt gold plated nib that I like better than Lamy Vista, and 2 mini neon blacklight. The ink is incredible but it is a quite difficult for me to take pictures. Maybe in the future I will.

I discovered other things: using Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue and after it, Pelikan SuperPirat to erase the ink, the lines erased are light versions of invisible ink under the blacklight; moleskines are very good to see blue ghost effects; fluorescent colors and luminator inks (fire inks) are very cool under a blacklight; if you collect minerals you can use the blacklight to see the luminescence; you can use the blacklight to see if your toilet is really clean

 

I forgot to tell that I was looking around to find a big reserve of the Blue Ghost ink with a less price than actual, but also if I want to risk putting stamp's invisible ink in my fountain pens, the cost is exactly the same of noodler's blue ghost. So by now, I continue using it. By the way, what have I to write of so long that 3 oz of Blue Ghost is not an enough quantity?

Edited February 22, 2007 by Netnemo

[AndreaDuni]

Hi guys,

as I promised here are some pics of my Pilot Namiki Demonstrator + Noodler's Blue Ghost ink. The camera is a Canon PowerShot A510 with Av mode f2.6 ISO 50 shot delay 1 sec AWB balance. The light comes from a mini neon blacklight. The paper is a blank moleskine poket. The room is at a total dark.

Enjoy... and sorry for my calligraphy...

http://fountainpens.netnemo.net/Inks/Noodler%20Blue%20Ghost/slides/NoodlersBlueGhost_09.JPG

Edited May 31, 2007 by Netnemo

[AndreaDuni]

http://fountainpens.netnemo.net/Inks/Noodler%20Blue%20Ghost/slides/NoodlersBlueGhost_11.JPG Edited May 31, 2007 by Netnemo

[AndreaDuni]

http://fountainpens.netnemo.net/Inks/Noodler%20Blue%20Ghost/slides/NoodlersBlueGhost_12.JPG Edited May 31, 2007 by Netnemo

[imagesbycfm]

Excellent photo - very creative!!!!

[AndreaDuni]

Thank you. I shot these pics quickly so I hope to have time to shoot better pics.

[cbryan]

This thread forced me to part with my money for a Lamy Vista...

 

Thanks guys!!