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Ring Top Set Worth Saving?


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#1 Gracie

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:01

I just picked up a ring top set at an auction, along with some other items. The pen has a feed but no nib, and the ring is missing. The pencil seems to be complete but the ring top end doesn't fit very snugly. I've looked online for a diagram of the way it works but without success. So, I'm wondering if the pen can be saved and if it is worth sending to someone to do so, as I have no tools and no idea what I'm doing? :notworthy1: Grateful for whatever suggestions you have....

#2 Wahlnut

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:19

Given all the issues you describe, What you sounds like it would not be worth the cost of the kind of restoration required:
The pen jump ring (if thats all that is missing is easy to replace but if the fixed ring to which the jump ring attaches is missing that part was soldered into the cap tassie disc. The tassie disc is held in place by the rolled cap end bead that encircles the tassie and the inside/underside of the tassie disk is pressed up against the inner cap top. To fix this the cap end bead needs to be cut off on a lathe, freeing the tassie to which 3/4 ring ends are soldered in place again under the tassie. have if the pencil works properly is pen and pencil set good as donors for a good pencil is a good

The pen looks to take a #2 WAHL nib which can be had for about $30-50 depending on grind and flex. The pencil had a unique mechanism that when the cap is twisted clockwise it expelled the lead. When the lead was fully expelled, the entire inside assembly del-releases and the entire insides can be withdrawn for refilling. There was space for spare leads in a cavity in the inner mechanism, but this pencil was not a repeater. You had to install a new lead in the inner mechanism outside the pencil and then reinsert the mechanism into the pencil....So I am not sure what is loose. Some of what I describe will be loose and some should be snug. Can you explain what is loose? There are pencil instructions floating around on this forum if you search for it.
Hope this is of some help to you
Syd
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#3 Gracie

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:41

Given all the issues you describe, What you sounds like it would not be worth the cost of the kind of restoration required:
The pen jump ring (if thats all that is missing is easy to replace but if the fixed ring to which the jump ring attaches is missing that part was soldered into the cap tassie disc. The tassie disc is held in place by the rolled cap end bead that encircles the tassie and the inside/underside of the tassie disk is pressed up against the inner cap top. To fix this the cap end bead needs to be cut off on a lathe, freeing the tassie to which 3/4 ring ends are soldered in place again under the tassie. have if the pencil works properly is pen and pencil set good as donors for a good pencil is a good

The pen looks to take a #2 WAHL nib which can be had for about $30-50 depending on grind and flex. The pencil had a unique mechanism that when the cap is twisted clockwise it expelled the lead. When the lead was fully expelled, the entire inside assembly del-releases and the entire insides can be withdrawn for refilling. There was space for spare leads in a cavity in the inner mechanism, but this pencil was not a repeater. You had to install a new lead in the inner mechanism outside the pencil and then reinsert the mechanism into the pencil....So I am not sure what is loose. Some of what I describe will be loose and some should be snug. Can you explain what is loose? There are pencil instructions floating around on this forum if you search for it.
Hope this is of some help to you
Syd



Wow, that is really useful. I've been playing about with the pencil with your instructions and I think it is now certainly useable, even if not factory perfect, and I'll keep working on it. I would like to restore the pen, and I notice that Five Star Pens sells nibs - I would be game to try to repair the pen myself :roflmho: but I would definitely need a cheering squad who could guide me through it. I would be content to leave the ring off the top, and just seal the two holes in order to keep the nib from drying out, as this would just be a pen for my own pleasure rather than something to sell or display. I can't open the lever and haven't tried forcing it of course, so I would have to open the pen somehow and clean it and presumably replace the ink sac. Am I overestimating my capabilities here? :embarrassed_smile:

Thanks again, Syd, for taking the time on this.

#4 jbb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:07

Wahl ringtops are one of my favorite pens. I hope you can find a nib for yours and get it writing! :thumbup: I have several user-grade ones that I restored myself. Which size do you have? I have both the 3-1/8" and the 3-1/2" size pens.

Posted Image

#5 Gracie

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:32

Wahl ringtops are one of my favorite pens. I hope you can find a nib for yours and get it writing! :thumbup: I have several user-grade ones that I restored myself. Which size do you have? I have both the 3-1/8" and the 3-1/2" size pens.

Posted Image


Well, it seems to be 3.4" without the cap on (and no nib, just the feed), and 3.6" with the cap on, measured with my dad's drafting ruler in an attempt at accuracy. It looks to me to be the very same as the one on the right side of your lovely illustration (fabulous writing, I must say). I am assuming that your #0 is a flex nib? I would love to get this one working like that - writing like that is another matter, but one has to start with the right nib I guess.

Do you think I am over-reaching when I consider fixing it myself? If not, where would you suggest starting for a pen nib and interior sections? Should I start by soaking it in luke warm water?

Thanks for the wonderful photo and the information, JJB

#6 jbb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:56

Do you think I am over-reaching when I consider fixing it myself? If not, where would you suggest starting for a pen nib and interior sections? Should I start by soaking it in luke warm water?

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a professional pen restorer. This is just what I would do (and have done) if it were me:

I would attempt the repair. :bunny01: The worst case is you break the pen. :crybaby: The best case is you fix it and forever after you can fix lever-fill pens yourself which opens up a huge world of cheaper pens you can buy. :eureka:

These pens are friction fit. Have you tried gently wiggling the section out of the barrel?

Posted Image

Edited by jbb, 02 January 2013 - 21:18.


#7 LedZepGirl

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 23:10

I wouldn't give up on it. If you look around you should be able to at least find a replacement nib that will fit. If it were mine I wouldn't give up on it.
I'd rather spend my money on pens instead of shoes and handbags.

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#8 Gracie

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 00:02


Do you think I am over-reaching when I consider fixing it myself? If not, where would you suggest starting for a pen nib and interior sections? Should I start by soaking it in luke warm water?

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a professional pen restorer. This is just what I would do (and have done) if it were me:

I would attempt the repair. :bunny01: The worst case is you break the pen. :crybaby: The best case is you fix it and forever after you can fix lever-fill pens yourself which opens up a huge world of cheaper pens you can buy. :eureka:

These pens are friction fit. Have you tried gently wiggling the section out of the barrel?

Posted Image



OK, here we go! I soaked the pen in water and ammonia. It came apart without force and, although I'm no judge, I suspect that the feed is damaged. I don't know what the whiteness is in the second photo, but I suspect it is just reflection on a bit of water. The photos aren't great and if you need better I'll try again. I tried to open the lever very gently, and it opened a tiny bit and made a crunching sound and bits of dried ink fell out, so I rinsed it and tried it again several times, always just to the same point which is shown in the photo. Each time there was crunching and more dried bits came out. An enormous amount of ink dissolved out of it, and I suspect that there is more to come, because I can't easily move the lever any further than it already shows. It is now resoaking. :hmm1:

#9 Gracie

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 00:04

I wouldn't give up on it. If you look around you should be able to at least find a replacement nib that will fit. If it were mine I wouldn't give up on it.


Thanks, LedZep Girl, I appreciate the encouragement. As you can see from the photos just uploaded, I probably need a complete nib/feed unit.

Is that Zappa? :thumbup:

Edited by Gracie, 03 January 2013 - 00:05.


#10 jbb

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 00:11

The feed looks fine enough to work. :thumbup: That crunching sound is the old dried sac. You want to get that out. I sometimes use tweezers. Also, if you can keep the lever from coming apart and falling out your job will be a lot simpler so try to remove all the old pieces of sac gently.

Wait.... doesn't the section -- the piece the feed goes into which then goes into the barrel detach from the barrel on your pen????? :blink: It should and it will be easier to get the old sac out if you can wiggle that off the barrel. Plus you'll need that separated in order to re-sac your pen.

Edited by jbb, 03 January 2013 - 00:21.


#11 Gracie

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 00:40

The feed looks fine enough to work. :thumbup: That crunching sound is the old dried sac. You want to get that out. I sometimes use tweezers. Also, if you can keep the lever from coming apart and falling out your job will be a lot simpler so try to remove all the old pieces of sac gently.

Wait.... doesn't the section -- the piece the feed goes into which then goes into the barrel detach from the barrel on your pen????? :blink: It should and it will be easier to get the old sac out if you can wiggle that off the barrel. Plus you'll need that separated in order to re-sac your pen.


Oh oh! I just found this on John Mottishaw's site - "*Important note: never use ammonia on the barrels of Wahl Eversharp pens from the 20's or 30's, or any other pen with aluminum parts." It didn't even occur to me that there would be aluminum in this pen. I wonder if I have just destroyed it. It soaked for a couple of hours in a mix of water and ammonia. :bonk: Now it is soaking just in lukewarm water, but at least another 20 large pieces of dried ink came out, and by large I mean about .3" x.25". I can't believe what is coming out of there. The lever now completely opens and I hope that doesn't mean too completely. It hasn't fallen apart, and it closed with a nice little click, so I'll try getting the rest of the junk out without opening or closing the lever again. I'll try tweezers, but it's a tight fit. I assume there are special tweezers available for this sort of thing? It sounds like one major piece bouncing up and down in there now.

I can't find any way to remove the black liner that the nib snugs into inside the barrel. There doesn't seem to be any obvious way to remove that. I'll look for a diagram on line somewhere. I guess there is no nice way to dissolve the sac without ruining the pen any more than I already have with the ammonia? :gaah:

Now later...I took my tiny brush used for cleaning the spouts of teapots and gave the inside of the pen a thorough but gentle clean, and also the feeder. I took a tiny crochet hook and worked it all around the inside and can't feel anything in there except the lever mechanism and the edge of the threaded section. At first I thought I might be able to pull out the black liner that snugs the nib into the body, but after feeling around in there for awhile I decided that what I was feeling was probably the edge of the threaded section rather than the bottom of the liner. Nothing more is coming out, and the only thing I can hear is the lever mechanism which shakes a bit if I push it a certain way, which I'm trying not to.

Over and out....

Edited by Gracie, 03 January 2013 - 03:42.


#12 Wahlnut

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:50

As was suggested earlier, that metal covered feed snugger, is actually a metal overlay on hard rubber, and it does not come apart. Although it was made of 2 parts when fabricated originally, once it was made it became a single unit. Based on your pictures and what the previous advisor was trying to say I think is that you must remove the whole gold covered section that held the nib, from the pen. If not you can not put a new sac in the pen nor adhere it to the section nipple that the sac goes on that you will see when you get the section off. To remove the section, you will need to rock it back and forthwith a good amount of pressure while pulling it out.

These pens had friction fit sections which means the section was tightly pressed into the barrel with the sac on the section. Over the many years the tight fit of the section inside the barrel sometimes has pressed grooves where thinner surface of the barrel threads that hold the cap on the outside and make the rocking technique very hard to do. Using an unscrewing (counter-clockwise) motion) while rocking may help to get the section out.

Caution, Without the nib and feed to reinforce the section interior there is a chance of crushing the section if you apply too much pressure with section pliers. Without a nib it makes it tough. If you have apiece of wooden dowel that makes a tight fit in the section hole (or if the feed is a tight fit) use one of them to reinforce the section during removal. After you get the section off the barrel, check back in for more tips.

PS. You did not ruin anything with the ammonia and water mixture.
Syd

Edited by Wahlnut, 03 January 2013 - 05:51.

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#13 Gracie

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 17:45

As was suggested earlier, that metal covered feed snugger, is actually a metal overlay on hard rubber, and it does not come apart. Although it was made of 2 parts when fabricated originally, once it was made it became a single unit. Based on your pictures and what the previous advisor was trying to say I think is that you must remove the whole gold covered section that held the nib, from the pen. If not you can not put a new sac in the pen nor adhere it to the section nipple that the sac goes on that you will see when you get the section off. To remove the section, you will need to rock it back and forthwith a good amount of pressure while pulling it out.

These pens had friction fit sections which means the section was tightly pressed into the barrel with the sac on the section. Over the many years the tight fit of the section inside the barrel sometimes has pressed grooves where thinner surface of the barrel threads that hold the cap on the outside and make the rocking technique very hard to do. Using an unscrewing (counter-clockwise) motion) while rocking may help to get the section out.

Caution, Without the nib and feed to reinforce the section interior there is a chance of crushing the section if you apply too much pressure with section pliers. Without a nib it makes it tough. If you have apiece of wooden dowel that makes a tight fit in the section hole (or if the feed is a tight fit) use one of them to reinforce the section during removal. After you get the section off the barrel, check back in for more tips.

PS. You did not ruin anything with the ammonia and water mixture.
Syd

Hi Syd,

Thank you so much for that. I obviously missed that point entirely about removing the actual section itself. I can't even see a section there, but I'll get out my jeweller's loupe and try to find it, and look for a piece of dowel. Then I have to try to find a sac and a nib. Any suggestions on that piece of this puzzle? And thank you also for the PS about the ammonia, because I really thought I had blown it there.

:(



#14 gweddig

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:36

Hi Gracie,
It looks to me like the section (think 'gripping section') is the part below the threads where your fingers grip, just above where the nib would be. I always use dry heat when removing, not too hot and as was said above gently (but with a good amount of pressure) twist and rock. Sometimes rubber gloves or a small piece of rubber tube helps to grip. The dowel should fit snugly where the feed was but honestly I would try twisting it with finger pressure first and see if it loosens up. I am just an amateur however.

Syd may chime in here with the exact size but I think I put a #14 in the couple I have done. They can be ordered from a few places like the Pen Sac Company, in the US. I can't help you with the nib.
--greg

Hi Syd,

Thank you so much for that. I obviously missed that point entirely about removing the actual section itself. I can't even see a section there, but I'll get out my jeweller's loupe and try to find it, and look for a piece of dowel. Then I have to try to find a sac and a nib. Any suggestions on that piece of this puzzle? And thank you also for the PS about the ammonia, because I really thought I had blown it there.

:(


Edited by gweddig, 03 January 2013 - 19:37.


#15 Gracie

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:08

Hi Gracie,
It looks to me like the section (think 'gripping section') is the part below the threads where your fingers grip, just above where the nib would be. I always use dry heat when removing, not too hot and as was said above gently (but with a good amount of pressure) twist and rock. Sometimes rubber gloves or a small piece of rubber tube helps to grip. The dowel should fit snugly where the feed was but honestly I would try twisting it with finger pressure first and see if it loosens up. I am just an amateur however.

Syd may chime in here with the exact size but I think I put a #14 in the couple I have done. They can be ordered from a few places like the Pen Sac Company, in the US. I can't help you with the nib.
--greg


Hi Syd,

Thank you so much for that. I obviously missed that point entirely about removing the actual section itself. I can't even see a section there, but I'll get out my jeweller's loupe and try to find it, and look for a piece of dowel. Then I have to try to find a sac and a nib. Any suggestions on that piece of this puzzle? And thank you also for the PS about the ammonia, because I really thought I had blown it there.

:(


Hi Greg,

Thanks for that. So if I'm thinking this out properly, I only want to heat the end bit that I am trying to remove, so that it expands but the threaded main body does not. Is that correct? I'm thinking that I'll try holding that end in almost boiling water to heat it up, and then add some 3 in1 Oil to the join and try turning it counter clockwise.... :rolleyes:

Heading for the kettle, Gracie

Later...OK, tried that. I'm not getting it hot enough, even though I held it on the top of my wood-burning cookstove until my hand got too hot. There must be a better way to do this.

Edited by Gracie, 04 January 2013 - 02:42.


#16 gweddig

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 16:53

Hi there,
I would use a dry heat, as noted previously, boiling water can sometimes cause other problems so in general, I avoid it. Many people use a hair dryer. It also sounds like you might need a section pliers, not a regular pliers. I would take a gander at this article on Richard Binder's website for a overview of the procedure you are trying. This is how I started.

Specifically you are trying to provide some heat to the threaded portion of the barrel since that is what the sleeve of the section is inserted into. One if the important take-aways for me is if you start to get frustrated, walk away for a day or two and come back with fresh ideas and positive energy. Frustration breaks pens. Also sometimes the heat/cool cycle helps loosen whatever is keeping the section in. Note that you should use (dry) heat when replacing the section back into the barrel.

I would also skip the 3-1 oil, it might be hard to remove from the barrel and may cause unwanted deterioration of the rubber sac you'll eventually be putting in.

Good luck, keep us posted.

--greg


Hi Greg,

Thanks for that. So if I'm thinking this out properly, I only want to heat the end bit that I am trying to remove, so that it expands but the threaded main body does not. Is that correct? I'm thinking that I'll try holding that end in almost boiling water to heat it up, and then add some 3 in1 Oil to the join and try turning it counter clockwise.... :rolleyes:

Heading for the kettle, Gracie

Later...OK, tried that. I'm not getting it hot enough, even though I held it on the top of my wood-burning cookstove until my hand got too hot. There must be a better way to do this.


Edited by gweddig, 04 January 2013 - 16:54.


#17 Gracie

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 20:01

Hi there,
I would use a dry heat, as noted previously, boiling water can sometimes cause other problems so in general, I avoid it. Many people use a hair dryer. It also sounds like you might need a section pliers, not a regular pliers. I would take a gander at this article on Richard Binder's website for a overview of the procedure you are trying. This is how I started.

Specifically you are trying to provide some heat to the threaded portion of the barrel since that is what the sleeve of the section is inserted into. One if the important take-aways for me is if you start to get frustrated, walk away for a day or two and come back with fresh ideas and positive energy. Frustration breaks pens. Also sometimes the heat/cool cycle helps loosen whatever is keeping the section in. Note that you should use (dry) heat when replacing the section back into the barrel.

I would also skip the 3-1 oil, it might be hard to remove from the barrel and may cause unwanted deterioration of the rubber sac you'll eventually be putting in.

Good luck, keep us posted.

--greg



Hi Greg,

Thanks for that. So if I'm thinking this out properly, I only want to heat the end bit that I am trying to remove, so that it expands but the threaded main body does not. Is that correct? I'm thinking that I'll try holding that end in almost boiling water to heat it up, and then add some 3 in1 Oil to the join and try turning it counter clockwise.... :rolleyes:

Heading for the kettle, Gracie

Later...OK, tried that. I'm not getting it hot enough, even though I held it on the top of my wood-burning cookstove until my hand got too hot. There must be a better way to do this.


Hi Greg,

Thank you for the info on the 3 - 1 oil, now put away. I'm still having trouble with this, and thought that rather than quit, I should maybe start with something that might possibly be a bit easier. I remembered that I have an E. Faber pen (a gift) that is missing a sac and and a nib, but the screw in nib section unscrews. I have kept it just because the body is so pretty, and sometimes I use it to carry cartridges when I am travelling. So I'm wondering if I could possibly get a nib and sac for this one and have a go at that, and maybe get help from someone local just to get the nib section out of the Wahl Eversharp? Does that sound like a plan? :unsure:

Cheers, Gracie

Edited by Gracie, 06 January 2013 - 21:09.


#18 pokermon

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 20:26

Don't use water. If it gets into the pen you will rust out the bar and lever. Use a hair dryer and blow it at the section. These gold filled Wahl FP's always give me a hard time when trying to take out the section. I have a set right now that I can't take the section out. I try every other day or so then put it down. I've restored about 4 sets but this little one with the #0 nib giving me a hell of a time...
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#19 pokermon

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 20:33

P.S.

Don't give up! Try and then give it a day and try again. Repeat until success!
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#20 Gracie

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:04

P.S.

Don't give up! Try and then give it a day and try again. Repeat until success!


Hi Tommy,

Thank you for the information and the encouragement. It's too late to avoid the water, but I thoroughly dried it over a heat source right afterwards, so hopefully there is no harm done. My son is visiting this weekend, so I'll try the hair dryer again and see if he can get it off. There is a local fellow who does some minor repair work, and I've been trying to get hold of him to see if he can help me with the proper tools, but I think maybe he's out of town. If I do get it off, where do I go from there?

How do I get a new sac and a nib? I don't want to quit, but being on an island in the Pacific requires finding everything somewhere else.

Cheers, Gracie

#21 pokermon

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:30

The sac you can find easily from many online sites. The nib will be a little harder. I think your pen can take anything from a Wahl #0 to a #3
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#22 Gracie

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:03

The sac you can find easily from many online sites. The nib will be a little harder. I think your pen can take anything from a Wahl #0 to a #3


I think the #0 is the most flexible? I'm going to try the hair dryer again today with the help of my son's muscle <g>. I'll get back to you....

#23 gweddig

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:01

and.....?


The sac you can find easily from many online sites. The nib will be a little harder. I think your pen can take anything from a Wahl #0 to a #3


I think the #0 is the most flexible? I'm going to try the hair dryer again today with the help of my son's muscle <g>. I'll get back to you....



#24 Effin1

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 11:02

I am also following this with an air of anticipation. I have had the most trouble with screw fit and I remember reading a tip on this board about using a clothes peg (pin) which worked very successfully on a P51 hood. I now have section pliers but even with them I find some Parkers really stubborn. I can manage my CS's that are friction fit with just my hands now I have developed a technique. I bought my first Wahl yesterday but it has been restored fortunately. Come on Gracie do tell us.

#25 LedZepGirl

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 18:52


I wouldn't give up on it. If you look around you should be able to at least find a replacement nib that will fit. If it were mine I wouldn't give up on it.


Thanks, LedZep Girl, I appreciate the encouragement. As you can see from the photos just uploaded, I probably need a complete nib/feed unit.

Is that Zappa? :thumbup:


You're welcome.

And yes it is.

About that damaged feed- you can probably still use it. I have an Esterbrook nib with fins missing from the feed and it writes fine, there was nothing wrong with the nib so I gave it a try, so the problem is just cosmetic.

About replacing sacs- check out my blog- the link in my sig.
I'd rather spend my money on pens instead of shoes and handbags.

>>> My Blog <<<

#26 Gracie

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:57



I wouldn't give up on it. If you look around you should be able to at least find a replacement nib that will fit. If it were mine I wouldn't give up on it.


Thanks, LedZep Girl, I appreciate the encouragement. As you can see from the photos just uploaded, I probably need a complete nib/feed unit.

Is that Zappa? :thumbup:


You're welcome.

And yes it is.

About that damaged feed- you can probably still use it. I have an Esterbrook nib with fins missing from the feed and it writes fine, there was nothing wrong with the nib so I gave it a try, so the problem is just cosmetic.

About replacing sacs- check out my blog- the link in my sig.


Dear All offering such great support,

My son arrived and also gave up on the brink of disaster. Therefore, the pen sits as originally purchased, except that it is now clean. I hate to be a quitter, but I'm at the point of seeking professional sac and nib replacement, keeping the original feed. :embarrassed_smile: :embarrassed_smile:

#27 Gracie

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:57

I just noticed some lovely W-E nibs at Five Star Pens that look affordable without the feed and section.

Edited by Gracie, 20 January 2013 - 23:02.


#28 Gracie

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 20:30

All right, I've succumbed to sanity on this one, and sent it off to Five Star Pens for a new sac and nib. We had come so close to crushing it that it seemed to be the only option and I had to bite the bullet on clinging to my resolve not to be a quitter. If I come across another one, I'll come back and take all the good advice you have offered, and I must again say thank you to everyone who took the time to write out all that good information. I hope it serves others well, in addition to being my future reference. :thumbup:

I'll post a photo when I get it back from Five Star Pens.