Represent The White Dot Something?

December 31, 2012

lazard:

Let's look at the evidence, none of which is in dispute, as far as I can tell:

- In 1913, apparently for just a few months, Sheaffer briefly used the image of an archery target (not a "dartboard") and a slogan, "The Bull's Eye of Perfection", for their company's products.
- In the only color advertisement I know if, the center of the bullseye is dark, and the surrounding ring is red, with alternating light/red rings around that
- For about ten years, Sheaffer makes no reference whatsoever to a bullseye or target in any known materials, either pictorially or with verbiage
- Sheaffer's trademark filing is only for the white dot. It is not for a white dot with a surrounding black (or dark) circle.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing for the White Dot specifically mentions that it -- the dot alone -- may be applied to the barrel of a pen or pencil.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing makes no mention of a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's White Dot trademark is not classified as representing a target.
- Sheaffer names its new Lifetime logo the "White Dot". It is not named in any way that states or implies it is supposed to represent a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's earliest ads that show and describe the White Dot have no imagery or wording that describe the new logo as representing a target or bullseye. On the contrary, ads say, for example, "Spot it by the dot in its field of jade." A dot in a field of jade reasonably is not a description of a bullseye.
- Black ribbon-lined hard rubber Lifetime pens that are advertised after the White Dot logo was first used do not have the White Dot, according to dated advertisements.
- The first color of celluloid used for pens by Sheaffer was jade green. This is stated in Sheaffer's autobiography.
- The first ad for a celluloid Sheaffer calls the new material Jadite, indicating celluloid pens were only available in green. Black celluloid pens were not yet being advertised.
- That same first ad for a celluloid pen also contains the first appearance of the White Dot logo, which appears against a Jade background. There is no mention or reference to a target or bullseye.
- From the above, we can conclude that the Jade pen was the first to have the White Dot, as black hard rubber pens advertised after the logo was first used are shown without it, and as black celluloid pens were not yet being offered.
- Therefore, the first application of the White Dot to a product had the dot on a Jade green background.
- The specimen in the trademark file shows the dot on a Jade background.
- The traditional color of an archery bullseye is not white. It is gold.
- The traditional color of the next ring in an archery target is not black (or green). It is red.

Again, none of the facts listed above seems to be in dispute. Therefore, it is beyond generous to label your claim that the White Dot logo represents a bullseye as "speculation".

I would be very interested in any specific, evidence-based challenges you have to the above facts. Absent such challenges, it can be reasonably concluded that you concede these points, and it then follows that "speculation" is an appropriate label for your position.

--Daniel

Facts are just that !! You are , of course, correct in that the origin ( or initial prompt) for the WD is pure speculation. I doubt any documentation ever existed for the reason W.A. made the decision and said "this is what I want" ( yes, more speculation...) as he'd already decided. That at some some stage a "target" theme was used is fairly understandable as is it being short lived. Debates like these are in the end pointless because the "players" are long gone and the answers with them. Still it provides some light relief and bring the known facts to the table ( thank you) which is both positive and informative.

December 31, 2012

-One example: "The logo is a promise. The logo is not a brand in itself: it is a form of expression of the same or more condensed image. (...) The brand has to offer what the logo promises". Jörg Zintzmeyer in his book "Logo Design".

Apparently, you do not own, nor have you even read or seen this book, but you instead found this quotation and erroneous citation on the Internet somewhere and you blindly copied it into your post, error and all.

I would hope for a higher level of scholarship than that.

--Daniel

January 1, 2013

lazard:

Let's look at the evidence, none of which is in dispute, as far as I can tell:

- In 1913, apparently for just a few months, Sheaffer briefly used the image of an archery target (not a "dartboard") and a slogan, "The Bull's Eye of Perfection", for their company's products.
- In the only color advertisement I know if, the center of the bullseye is dark, and the surrounding ring is red, with alternating light/red rings around that
- For about ten years, Sheaffer makes no reference whatsoever to a bullseye or target in any known materials, either pictorially or with verbiage
- Sheaffer's trademark filing is only for the white dot. It is not for a white dot with a surrounding black (or dark) circle.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing for the White Dot specifically mentions that it -- the dot alone -- may be applied to the barrel of a pen or pencil.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing makes no mention of a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's White Dot trademark is not classified as representing a target.
- Sheaffer names its new Lifetime logo the "White Dot". It is not named in any way that states or implies it is supposed to represent a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's earliest ads that show and describe the White Dot have no imagery or wording that describe the new logo as representing a target or bullseye. On the contrary, ads say, for example, "Spot it by the dot in its field of jade." A dot in a field of jade reasonably is not a description of a bullseye.
- Black ribbon-lined hard rubber Lifetime pens that are advertised after the White Dot logo was first used do not have the White Dot, according to dated advertisements.
- The first color of celluloid used for pens by Sheaffer was jade green. This is stated in Sheaffer's autobiography.
- The first ad for a celluloid Sheaffer calls the new material Jadite, indicating celluloid pens were only available in green. Black celluloid pens were not yet being advertised.
- That same first ad for a celluloid pen also contains the first appearance of the White Dot logo, which appears against a Jade background. There is no mention or reference to a target or bullseye.
- From the above, we can conclude that the Jade pen was the first to have the White Dot, as black hard rubber pens advertised after the logo was first used are shown without it, and as black celluloid pens were not yet being offered.
- Therefore, the first application of the White Dot to a product had the dot on a Jade green background.
- The specimen in the trademark file shows the dot on a Jade background.
- The traditional color of an archery bullseye is not white. It is gold.
- The traditional color of the next ring in an archery target is not black (or green). It is red.

Again, none of the facts listed above seems to be in dispute. Therefore, it is beyond generous to label your claim that the White Dot logo represents a bullseye as "speculation".

I would be very interested in any specific, evidence-based challenges you have to the above facts. Absent such challenges, it can be reasonably concluded that you concede these points, and it then follows that "speculation" is an appropriate label for your position.

--Daniel

Very thorough, Daniel. I see an update to the original article with more information from the trademark, biography and new ads I have found.

Thanks!

January 15, 2015

To complicate things further, back in the early '90s I found a small ring box (plush, squarish, hinged) from Sheaffer's jewelry store, and there was a sort of bullseye logo in the lining of the top that looked just like a white dot in a circle. I did not photograph it before I sold it to Fultz, alas, and I have no idea where it might be now. I believe the jewelry business was wound down well before the White Dot was adopted, so this adds another layer of complexity to the picture.

Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology.

http://s22.postimg.org/rwttnaxdt/white_dot.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/5lfx3wrwh/white_dot_arrows_bull_s_eye_lazard.jpg

Edited January 15, 2015 by Lazard 20

January 15, 2015

Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology.

Untrue. Such appearances are fleeting and very scarce.

Nothing can yet be deduced from the jewelry box Mr. Nishimura describes; we do not have a picture of it, and we do not know from when it dates.

A reminder:

Let's look at the evidence, none of which is in dispute, as far as I can tell:

- In 1913, apparently for just a few months, Sheaffer briefly used the image of an archery target (not a "dartboard") and a slogan, "The Bull's Eye of Perfection", for their company's products.

- In the only color advertisement I know if, the center of the bullseye is dark, and the surrounding ring is red, with alternating light/red rings around that

- For about ten years, Sheaffer makes no reference whatsoever to a bullseye or target in any known materials, either pictorially or with verbiage

- Sheaffer's trademark filing is only for the white dot. It is not for a white dot with a surrounding black (or dark) circle.

- Sheaffer's trademark filing for the White Dot specifically mentions that it -- the dot alone -- may be applied to the barrel of a pen or pencil.

- Sheaffer's trademark filing makes no mention of a target or bullseye.

- Sheaffer's White Dot trademark is not classified as representing a target.

- Sheaffer names its new Lifetime logo the "White Dot". It is not named in any way that states or implies it is supposed to represent a target or bullseye.

- Sheaffer's earliest ads that show and describe the White Dot have no imagery or wording that describe the new logo as representing a target or bullseye. On the contrary, ads say, for example, "Spot it by the dot in its field of jade." A dot in a field of jade reasonably is not a description of a bullseye.

- Black ribbon-lined hard rubber Lifetime pens that are advertised after the White Dot logo was first used do not have the White Dot, according to dated advertisements.

- The first color of celluloid used for pens by Sheaffer was jade green. This is stated in Sheaffer's autobiography.

- The first ad for a celluloid Sheaffer calls the new material Jadite, indicating celluloid pens were only available in green. Black celluloid pens were not yet being advertised.

- That same first ad for a celluloid pen also contains the first appearance of the White Dot logo, which appears against a Jade background. There is no mention or reference to a target or bullseye.

- From the above, we can conclude that the Jade pen was the first to have the White Dot, as black hard rubber pens advertised after the logo was first used are shown without it, and as black celluloid pens were not yet being offered.

- Therefore, the first application of the White Dot to a product had the dot on a Jade green background.

- The specimen in the trademark file shows the dot on a Jade background.

- The traditional color of an archery bullseye is not white. It is gold.

- The traditional color of the next ring in an archery target is not black (or green). It is red.

Again, none of the facts listed above seems to be in dispute. I would be very interested in any specific, evidence-based challenges you have to the above facts.

--Daniel

January 15, 2015

Untrue. Such appearances are fleeting and very scarce.

Nothing can yet be deduced from the jewelry box Mr. Nishimura describes; we do not have a picture of it, and we do not know from when it dates.

A reminder:

Let's look at the evidence, none of which is in dispute, as far as I can tell:

- In 1913, apparently for just a few months, Sheaffer briefly used the image of an archery target (not a "dartboard") and a slogan, "The Bull's Eye of Perfection", for their company's products.
- In the only color advertisement I know if, the center of the bullseye is dark, and the surrounding ring is red, with alternating light/red rings around that
- For about ten years, Sheaffer makes no reference whatsoever to a bullseye or target in any known materials, either pictorially or with verbiage
- Sheaffer's trademark filing is only for the white dot. It is not for a white dot with a surrounding black (or dark) circle.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing for the White Dot specifically mentions that it -- the dot alone -- may be applied to the barrel of a pen or pencil.
- Sheaffer's trademark filing makes no mention of a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's White Dot trademark is not classified as representing a target.
- Sheaffer names its new Lifetime logo the "White Dot". It is not named in any way that states or implies it is supposed to represent a target or bullseye.
- Sheaffer's earliest ads that show and describe the White Dot have no imagery or wording that describe the new logo as representing a target or bullseye. On the contrary, ads say, for example, "Spot it by the dot in its field of jade." A dot in a field of jade reasonably is not a description of a bullseye.
- Black ribbon-lined hard rubber Lifetime pens that are advertised after the White Dot logo was first used do not have the White Dot, according to dated advertisements.
- The first color of celluloid used for pens by Sheaffer was jade green. This is stated in Sheaffer's autobiography.
- The first ad for a celluloid Sheaffer calls the new material Jadite, indicating celluloid pens were only available in green. Black celluloid pens were not yet being advertised.
- That same first ad for a celluloid pen also contains the first appearance of the White Dot logo, which appears against a Jade background. There is no mention or reference to a target or bullseye.
- From the above, we can conclude that the Jade pen was the first to have the White Dot, as black hard rubber pens advertised after the logo was first used are shown without it, and as black celluloid pens were not yet being offered.
- Therefore, the first application of the White Dot to a product had the dot on a Jade green background.
- The specimen in the trademark file shows the dot on a Jade background.
- The traditional color of an archery bullseye is not white. It is gold.
- The traditional color of the next ring in an archery target is not black (or green). It is red.

Again, none of the facts listed above seems to be in dispute. I would be very interested in any specific, evidence-based challenges you have to the above facts.
--Daniel

It's cheeky quote my assertion: "Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology" as untrue.

We do not have any picture of it as you say.. but you forget blatantly to quote that Mr Nishimura gives us a clear description which I would remember... " bullseye logo in the lining of the top that looked just like a white dot in a circle".

In any case, certainly nothing of all your verbiage contradicts my earlier statement "Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology" supported by clear images.

Look again. If you do not see arrows -in catalog, in barrel in ads- , bull´s eyes -graphically and with words in Sheaffer´s catalog and into Mr. Nishimura description-, white dots -as bull´s eye- and Sheaffer´S fountain pen -as arrows-, I would recommend to you, if I may, to visit your ophthalmologist.

http://s16.postimg.org/fmtszttad/white_dot.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/s758rkelz/white_dot_arrows_bull_s_eye_lazard.jpg

Edited January 15, 2015 by Lazard 20

January 15, 2015

It's cheeky quote my assertion: "Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology" as untrue.

We do not have any picture of it as you say.. but you forget blatantly to quote that Mr Nishimura gives us a clear description which I would remember... " bullseye logo in the lining of the top that looked just like a white dot in a circle".

In any case, certainly nothing of all your verbiage contradicts my earlier statement "Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, abound arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology" supported by clear images.

Look again. If you do not see arrows -in catalog, in barrel in ads- , bull´s eye -graphically and with words-, white dots -as bull´s eye- and Sheaffer´S fountain pen -as arrows-, I would recommend to you, if I may, to visit your ophthalmologist.

I think we have another language problem. "Abound" means "to be present in large numbers or in great quantity." Obviously, such a term does not apply here.

I also think you skipped over what I wrote about the jewelry box. "Nothing can yet be deduced from the jewelry box Mr. Nishimura describes; we do not have a picture of it, and we do not know from when it dates."

Please review the set of facts I provided and list the ones that you believe are incorrect, along with your evidence for your position. You do not need to list all the facts with which you agree; it is reasonable to assume you agree with all the points with which you do not take issue.

Thanks.

--Daniel

January 15, 2015

I think we have another language problem.

I am glad that the issue now is only about language and what we both consider as "large number" so I remain calm now, knowing you see, as all FPN, users arrows -in catalog, in barrel in ads- , bull´s eyes -graphically and with words in Sheaffer´s catalog and into Mr. Nishimura description-, white dots -as bull´s eye- and Sheaffer´S fountain pen -as arrows-.

I am also glad that we agree on this statement:

"Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, there are others(*) arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology"

(*) I concede you removing "abount" to avoid disputes

Footnote: Your "set of fact" are not in dispute in this topic and I do not mind this fact so I beg you do not be offended if I do not accept your invitation to comment on.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Lazard 20

January 15, 2015

I am glad that the issue now is only about language and what we both consider as "large number" so I remain calm now, knowing you see, as all FPN, users arrows -in catalog, in barrel in ads- , bull´s eyes -graphically and with words in Sheaffer´s catalog and into Mr. Nishimura description-, white dots -as bull´s eye- and Sheaffer´S fountain pen -as arrows-.

I am also glad that we agree on this statement:

"Certainly, in pre and post WD appearance, there are others(*) arrows and bull´s eye into Sheaffer´S simbology"

(*) I concede you removing "abount" to avoid disputes

I think you've either forgotten what I'd written earlier, or you never read it with care. I've never disagreed that there are few and fleeting references to arrows and bullseyes years away from Sheaffer's introduction of their White Dot logo, which of course contains no outer ring, as proven by the use on the side of the barrels of pens.

I will point out again that if Sheaffer intended their symbol to be a bullseye, why did they make absolutely no mention of, or graphic reference to, this fact, either in their trademark filing or in any of the copious marketing materials they produced when they introduced the logo?

The ad that you show is from several years after the White Dot first appeared. Please tell us what percentage of Sheaffer's ads show arrows during the decade following the introduction of the Dot.

I want to note that you now indicate that you agree with every single one of the facts I listed in my post above. To keep these facts handy, I'll list here all the statements with which we now agree:

- In a brief period a decade before the WD appearance, there are scarce and fleeting references to arrows and bull´s eyes in Sheaffer´s materials