Waterman Eye Dropper With A Mabie Todd Nib

[revdem]

I recently picked up a Waterman #16 eye dropper at an antique store. It has a fair biit of wear on the imprint, is a dark brown color, but has no chips or cracks. It has a waterman clip, but an interesting nib. Instead of the expected #6 Waterman nib it has a 55, stub nib made by Mabie Todd. It has a three line Longitudinal imprint reading Mabie Todd & Co/Legal nib/New York, and a crescent shaped breather hole. I know some of the early Waterman ads said that you could buy a pen holder and have your own nib installed - could this be a possible explanation for what's gone on here? Paid the princely sum of $3.00 for this pen and wanted to satisfy my curiosity as to how it ended up the way it did.

[Uncle Red]

What are the imprints on the pen? Can we get some pictures?

[revdem]

Waterman N Y 2 line imprint with a globe.

[Vintagepens]

Great nib!

Waterman stopped advertising the fitting of non-Waterman nibs back in the early 1890s, if my memory is correct (I don't have my notes on this handy at the moment). Your pen would have been made no earlier than 1910, assuming the clip is original, so one can assume that the nib's installation was not "official".

I've run across other pens with non-Waterman nibs that by all indications had been in the pens for a very long time, but likely as not they were installed way back when by pen mechanics more concerned with pleasing a customer than the strictures of the Waterman company.

[revdem]

Thanks David

[Uncle Red]

That is one sweet nib!

[rhr2010]

That Mabie Todd nib might be pretty scarce. Congratulations!

 

I also find now and then pens with wrong nibs and I always assumed that the original nib was broken and somebody put a substitution nib that was available or favorite by the owner of the pen.

[Scrawler]

Great nib!

Waterman stopped advertising the fitting of non-Waterman nibs back in the early 1890s, if my memory is correct (I don't have my notes on this handy at the moment). Your pen would have been made no earlier than 1910, assuming the clip is original, so one can assume that the nib's installation was not "official".

I've run across other pens with non-Waterman nibs that by all indications had been in the pens for a very long time, but likely as not they were installed way back when by pen mechanics more concerned with pleasing a customer than the strictures of the Waterman company.

There was some wag, who was an expert riveter who cut up accommodation clips and riveted them to caps of early pens, after it became fashionable to make pens with pocket clips. I have an example of a Swan Mabie Todd with a very similar nib. It is a bit later than this one. I estimate around 1917. That has had an accommodation clip cut up like this and riveted on in a similar way. It is quite possible that the riveting may have been done as late as the mid 1920s. In the case of this pen, it is very likely that both the body and nib were made before 1910, which is the patent date of the clip that was used on this pen, it is also quite likely that work was done much later.

 

The earliest Clip-Cap I have seen was from 1906, shortly after, I think in 1908, Waterman started to put lever fillers in. I am not sure, but I think that by 1910 they were probably mostly lever fillers. So My guess is that the Clip-Cap was taken from a post 1910 pen and then riveted on to an earlier pen.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Scrawler

[Vintagepens]

Waterman only introduced its first lever-fillers in 1915. Waterman's slip-cap eyedroppers remained popular for some time after the introduction of the lever-filler, too.

 

The pen (nib excepted) appears entirely consistent with standard Waterman manufacture c. 1910-1915. I see no reason whatsoever to posit that the clip was installed later.

[ldfph44]

I recently acquired a Waterman 52 1/2 BHR lever-filler with a nib that has a single "W" on it. I thought at first it was a Waterman nib, but after some checking on the web I'm fairly sure it's a Paul Wirt nib. Nice and flexible too.

[Scrawler]

Waterman only introduced its first lever-fillers in 1915. Waterman's slip-cap eyedroppers remained popular for some time after the introduction of the lever-filler, too.

 

The pen (nib excepted) appears entirely consistent with standard Waterman manufacture c. 1910-1915. I see no reason whatsoever to posit that the clip was installed later.

Yes you are right, my brain was not in gear, I was thinking of Sheaffer.

[Dlpens]

We often find earlier pens with later nibs. For that reason alone you cannot date a pen by the nib. In many instances the owner did drop a pen on its nib and brought the pen in for a repair. Either the owner or the repairman could have made the decision to use that nib, which is very nice. One of my joys at flea markets etc. is taking off the caps of otherwise boring pens and finding wonderful replacement nibs, like Waterman 100 nibs and occasionally earlier nibs or a music nib. This Mabie Todd nib looks to me to be a nib made in the teens by MT. Nice pen!

[Vintagepens]

It really wasn't that unusual for customers to ask a repairman to install a special nib, and most would happily comply. I recall buying a group of three or four pens from a man's estate -- a Wahl, a Conklin, and (I think) a Moore, all late 1920s to mid-1930s in date -- all of which were fitted with needlepoint warranted nibs. Clearly, the fellow liked super-fine nibs, and didn't care what brand name was on them.

 

I must differ from my friend Don on the dating of the Mabie Todd nib, though: to my eye, it's earlier than the pen, not later -- maybe 1890s.

[Dlpens]

Yes, I believe that David is correct. I forgot about the crescent breather hole. Nib is probably earlier than the pen itself.

[Antolin]

I dare to bring that topic up because I have recently bought a pen with a similar nib. I've asked for information in this spanish forum and some others similar nibs appeared. People thinks that there's a relation between them and some legal documents mainly in England. As it would be the case of John Whytwarth, Conway Stewart, Mentmore, etc. It is also supposed that those short tines perhaps were used to make copies with carbon papers. But nothing definitive.

Any theory of what would the "Legal Pen" or the number 33 mean? or if is there a practical reason for those crescent breathing holes and short tines?

 

http://s23.postimg.org/rp89byna3/w_IMG_3980.jpg

[Left FPN]

Accountant/accounting nibs maybe.

 

Here

Edited February 23, 2015 by Force

[Antolin]

Accountant/accounting nibs maybe.

 

Here

Thank you Force, that is a possibility. I thought that accountant nibs were always fine pointed, but maybe not. Interesting link, I'll ask Álvaro from Goldnibs about it.

[Goudy]

The "Legal Pens" were Mabie Todd's stub dip nibs. Here are a 44 and a 55 in reversible holders:

 

http://i.imgur.com/RZNKZsV.jpg

 

They do work as excellent FP nibs as well, though. The crescent shaped hole gives them a little flex. I'm currently using the 44 in a Desiderata:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Q4vE7lA.jpg

 

Here's the range of MT Legal Pens (from a 1903 catalogue):

 

http://i.imgur.com/n0EsNgI.jpg

 

More info in this thread: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/295948-mabie-todd-dip-pens/page-2

 

[sidthecat]

I've run across Moores with Waterman nibs on one or two occasions, and I found an incredibly flexy nib on a Remington, of all things. I asked Art Van Haselin to transplant it back into a Waterman body, which I have hopes he can accomplish.