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Need An Ink For Drafting Vellum


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#1 airborne18th

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:43

I have a ton of drafting paper,,well it is true vellum, not any type of blend.

I want to play around with using fountain pens on it, but I have had a hard time finding an ink that will not smear. I have a few lamy's with EF points, I know my Lamy 2000 with the right ink will work.

The main issue I think is that vellum does not really absorb too much ink,, if any at all.. Even with Micron pens you have to use the finer points.

Any suggestions... I have tried Lamy inks, Visconti, Dupont, Aurora, and PR American Blue..
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#2 Sandy1

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:06

Hi,

Kindly consider the nano-particle [carbon] inks such as Sailor kiwa-guro or Platinum Carbon Black. Perhaps even Pelikan Font India LINK.

All of those are what I personally consider 'high[er] maintenance' inks, requiring one to bring their 'A' Game to the pen hygiene regimen, and should not be left to linger in an unused pen. For ease of clean-up, I would also suggest using a pen that does not have an integral ink reservoir, preferring a cartridge/converter design so the nib+feed can be easily flushed from both ends, and can be immersed/soaked in water or a cleaning solution.

Bye,
S1

Edited by Sandy1, 24 May 2012 - 06:07.

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#3 pharmacist

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:50

Actually carbon inks (Sumi, chinese ink etc) are not recommended for vellum, because the writing can be easily rubbed off. Carbon based inks are ok for paper, not for vellum/parchment. Now what you really want is true iron gall inks, as these inks will bound to the protein of the vellum by a indelible tanning process (a chemical process which will molecularly attach the ferrogallotannate compounds to the protein matrix).

Now most commercial IG inks only have gallic acid, which are fine for paper, but it lacks the necessary tannic acid to make the ink really permanent and indelible for vellum (parchment).
My home brewed Urkundentinte contains this necessary tannic acid (pharmaceutical quality) to firmly attach the writing on this type of writing surface and writes beautifully in a fountain pen and dip pen alike. After proper drying and oxidising the writing is permanent and cannot be washed off, only by scratching off the surface.

#4 pencils+pens

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 14:49

wrong thread

Edited by pencils+pens, 24 May 2012 - 14:52.


#5 Uncle Red

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 17:28

Nelson, Sandy is talking about special fountain pen inks not dip pen or brush inks.

I have pulled my samples out in a while but I could check them on tracing paper.
Another option might be Pelikan Fount India, it's an India ink formulated for fountain pens.

Edited by Uncle Red, 24 May 2012 - 17:28.


#6 inkstainedruth

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 17:45

I'm a bit confused by what the OP says. Is it paper or vellum that he's working with?
I had to use "vellum paper" for a college course (mechanical/isometric drawings) and it's definitely a kind of paper. Mind you, we were using ruling pens, not FPs (except for the guy who "cheated" and used a Rapidograph, and bragged about it and got an A -- I got a C and was happy to have passed, but was pretty peeved about the other guy). :glare:
True vellum/parchment *isn't* paper.
I don't remember what sort of ink I used (it *was* back in 1979, after all) but it was probably India ink.
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth
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#7 pharmacist

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 18:26

Nelson, Sandy is talking about special fountain pen inks not dip pen or brush inks.

I have pulled my samples out in a while but I could check them on tracing paper.
Another option might be Pelikan Fount India, it's an India ink formulated for fountain pens.


I know it is about fountain pen inks.....my Urkundentinte is a true ferrogallotannate ink, similar to the inks used by the monks to write their beautiful manuscripts (but without the gum arabic), not the ferrogallate commercial IG inks and you know it is fully fountain pen compatible and it works as well with dip and oblique calligraphy pens alike :rolleyes: . My ink should be able to create those necessary chemical bounds (thanks to the tannic acid in the ink) to make the really permanent.

One moment: are talking about the same vellum, I have in my mind: white parchment made from a goat's skin, treated with a pumice and soaked in chalk water ?

Edited by pharmacist, 24 May 2012 - 18:28.


#8 airborne18th

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 19:08

I'm a bit confused by what the OP says. Is it paper or vellum that he's working with?
I had to use "vellum paper" for a college course (mechanical/isometric drawings) and it's definitely a kind of paper. Mind you, we were using ruling pens, not FPs (except for the guy who "cheated" and used a Rapidograph, and bragged about it and got an A -- I got a C and was happy to have passed, but was pretty peeved about the other guy). :glare:
True vellum/parchment *isn't* paper.
I don't remember what sort of ink I used (it *was* back in 1979, after all) but it was probably India ink.
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth


it is true vellum and not the vellum type paper which some notebooks use.

The smear is what I am trying to avoid.. I know there are inks for vellum, since there are ink systems specifically for drafting.
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#9 Uncle Red

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 21:03

Airbourne18th, are we talking dead goat; Yes or No?

Do people use real (dead goat) vellum for drafting?

Nelson, I know your inks are great for paper but so are the ones Sandy mentions. I don't know if they'll work on goat hide though.

I'll stick by Fount India as an option.

#10 airborne18th

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 21:11

Airbourne18th, are we talking dead goat; Yes or No?

Do people use real (dead goat) vellum for drafting?

Nelson, I know your inks are great for paper but so are the ones Sandy mentions. I don't know if they'll work on goat hide though.

I'll stick by Fount India as an option.


No it is not.. it is synthetic vellum,, maybe at some point traditional vellum was used, but not today.. You can get drafting vellum in two flavors--- synthetic which has no texture or absorption at all, or there is vellum/cotton, which is probably what clairefonte notebook paper is or Rhodia...
Your life really starts when you buy your first Dupont fountain pen; so stop aimlessly wandering through life and buy a Dupont!

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#11 Sandy1

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:52

Hi,

Wiki: Vellum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vellum

The part that bothers me about Drafting Vellum is that the surface may be plasticised to add strength to withstand erasure / reprographic processing: defeating most simple dye-based inks, and likely cellulose-reactive inks. The inks I mentioned will adhere to frosted Mylar®, so have a pretty good likelihood of adhering to plasticised Drafting Vellum.

If the paper is not plasticised, perhaps the extraordinarily fast-drying Noodler's Bernanke inks may also be considered, but I would be concerned about plump lines. http://www.fountainp...-bernanke-blue/

It would be unfortunate to have a cache of great paper sitting unused.

Time to order some ink samples - including I-G ink??


Please let us know how it goes.

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#12 jbb

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 13:14

I've had good success with an assortment of regular fountain pen inks on modern, commercial paper vellum. The ink just takes a little longer to dry. I don't know if this is the same sort you have. On goat vellum I played around with watercolors & inks.... but I've only done that a little.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Goat vellum:
Posted Image

Hygloss dark green vellum with homemade gold dip pen ink:
Posted Image

Edited by jbb, 25 May 2012 - 13:17.


#13 maus930

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 13:30

As an Engineer, I did a great deal of drawing and lettering on vellum , but the only ink I ever used was Higgins India ink

#14 Uncle Red

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 16:37

A sample o0f Pelikan's Fount India is worth a try.

#15 ravantra

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 16:52

We use to use ruling pens or Rapidiograph pens to draw on vellum paper. I have several rolls of vellum. We use to use Kohi-nor India Ink and would prep the vellum with Pounce powder.

Here is a link to the pounce. You can still purchase it from Alvin I believe.
http://www.thedielin...-container.html

I have not tried to use a FP on vellum yet.
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#16 pharmacist

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:00

Airbourne18th, are we talking dead goat; Yes or No?

Do people use real (dead goat) vellum for drafting?

Nelson, I know your inks are great for paper but so are the ones Sandy mentions. I don't know if they'll work on goat hide though.

I'll stick by Fount India as an option.


OK, because of the first post about the ambiguous name of "vellum" I was convinced the only good ink for goat's skin parchment (made from a dead animal's skin) is a ferrogallotannate ink, because on this material chinese/india ink (made of soot, thus pure carbon) will flake off. I did not know the TS meant a fake type of material resembling this precious material. On goat hide there is no other ink than ferrogallotannate ink to produce permanent writing. Dye and nano carbon ink will not adhere well on the denaturated protein surface of true vellum (note: animal skin parchment) :rolleyes: .

#17 Sandy1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 13:55

Hello again :)

+1 for using pounce to treat the paper. Of course! :headsmack:

FPN LINK

For coated stock, such as greeting cards, I most often use my climbing chalk. LINK (That is not a photo of me on the label!)

For primo paper, or when I want to add scent to billets doux, I'll use gum sandarac.

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#18 beak

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:07

Why not investigate the Rotring range of draughting inks made for their technical pens; one is labelled 'F' for film, i.e. plasticized surfaces. Can't see why they wouldn't be OK for an FP since they're good for tech pens and flush with water. Always better not to leave them in any pen when it's not going to be used for a long time. They also supply sachets of cleaning fluid (probably just a mild detergent) which you could use to flush your FP when you've finished.

Someone here may know better.
Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#19 Sandy1

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 13:31

Why not investigate the Rotring range of draughting inks made for their technical pens; one is labelled 'F' for film, i.e. plasticized surfaces. Can't see why they wouldn't be OK for an FP since they're good for tech pens and flush with water. Always better not to leave them in any pen when it's not going to be used for a long time. They also supply sachets of cleaning fluid (probably just a mild detergent) which you could use to flush your FP when you've finished.

Someone here may know better.


Hi,

OOOPS!

There is a basic design difference in the feed+nib of
FPs and TPs that do not reliably allow the use of draughting inks in FPs.

While a person might 'get away with it' in a pen such as a Pilot Plate Pen or a rotring Art Pen, I would not do so with other than an expendable typical fountain pen. (So sorry Platinum Preppy.)

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#20 beak

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:13

.......


I stand corrected, then; you know far more about inks than I do - but would be interested to learn more about why they would not be suitable. Not saying that you're wrong, of course, just seems that if this ink can flow down a tube of I.D. 0.18mm or even less, and it is water soluble...

I do know from experience that if left for too long (several months) unattended in a technical pen, they can (but do not necessarily) dry out and stop it from working, but soaking in water clears them.

Is it a viscosity issue, or do they contain nasties of some type?
Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#21 sexauerw

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:26

The technical pen comes with a little wire in the tube. The wire protrudes slightly from the bottom of the tube and is attached to a weight at its top. This means that it moves up and down each time the pen touches and lifts from the writing surface, making it self-cleaning. Fountain pens have no such similar mechanism. Once particulates have dried and clogged the feed, a fountain pen is in big trouble.

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#22 sexauerw

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:29

And, drafting inks are not water soluble. The pigment is a particulate that is ground very fine and is simply suspended in the aqueous solution. Once dry, it will not dissolve.

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#23 Sandy1

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:45


.......


I stand corrected, then; you know far more about inks than I do - but would be interested to learn more about why they would not be suitable. Not saying that you're wrong, of course, just seems that if this ink can flow down a tube of I.D. 0.18mm or even less, and it is water soluble...

I do know from experience that if left for too long (several months) unattended in a technical pen, they can (but do not necessarily) dry out and stop it from working, but soaking in water clears them.

Is it a viscosity issue, or do they contain nasties of some type?


Hi,

As Member sexauerw mentioned above, draughting pens are a self-cleaning wire-in-a-tube arrangement, known as a 'stylographic' pen.

The flow-through 'nozzle' design can handle particulate pigmented inks as it does not have the channeled capillary feed+slit of an FP.
(The FP as we know it had to wait for particle-free dye-based inks; and only recently, the nano particle FP inks were introduced - whose permanence is outstanding - best of both types?)

Also the liquid media of draughting ink is different - shellac, solvents, polymers, etc. - that would attack or clog an FP's channel feed, but are necessary for strong adhesion to the writing surface, line quality, to keep the pigment particles evenly distributed/suspended (liquid state colloid), etc.

The well-regarded Richard Binder has an entry about
stylographic pens on the richardspens dot com site with history, great illustrations and photos. (Just search 'stylographic'.)

As fortune would have it, an NOS vintage stylographic pen is currently offered on eB@y - Item 180867227496.

Bye,
S1

Edited by Sandy1, 03 June 2012 - 22:52.

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#24 beak

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:36

.........


Thanks for all the details. I hope it was noted that I said 'investigate' these inks, not 'use' them, just so that I don't look like a twit!

I was familiar with the wire cleaning system of tech pens, but I don't think the wire ever touches the paper - it would not last long if it did, surely? The wire comes into play only when one shakes the pen gently (horizontally), the weight causing the wire to move back and forth inside the tube/nib.
Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#25 Tweel

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:19

The wire actually does protrude, and is harder than the tube, so that over time it will protrude more and more, and begin to snag on the paper.

* * * "Don't neglect to write me several times from different places when you may."
-- John Purdue (1863)


#26 Tweel

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:31

I have a ton of drafting paper,,well it is true vellum, not any type of blend.

I want to play around with using fountain pens on it, but I have had a hard time finding an ink that will not smear.

If you have more than one brand, try them all. Some are very friendly to fountain pen ink, and others are virtually like waxed paper (although they work great with india ink -- I'm looking at you, Albanene!).

* * * "Don't neglect to write me several times from different places when you may."
-- John Purdue (1863)


#27 beak

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 00:22

The wire actually does protrude, and is harder than the tube, so that over time it will protrude more and more, and begin to snag on the paper.


Bit of a side issue this, but for what it's worth, the above contradicts itself; if the wire snags when the tube is worn down, then it does not protrude when the pen is in working condition.
Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#28 Tweel

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:16

No, when a technical pen point is new, the wire does protrude a little bit (check with a magnifying glass). The weight inside acts as an ink valve, and when you put the point to paper, the wire is pushed up and opens it. As the tube wears away and the wire protrudes more, it does tend to snag.

That's probably due to some combination of factors, e.g. the wire (which starts out finely polished) developing a sharper edge due to wear, and the longer lever arm of the wire pinning it more effectively against the inside of the tube under side-force. But whatever the reason, the bumblebee can fly (honestly, I'm not making this up!).

* * * "Don't neglect to write me several times from different places when you may."
-- John Purdue (1863)