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Uh Oh... Did I Just Order The Wrong Nib For The Namiki/pilot Falcon? Namiki Sf Versus Fa


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#1 ptrcao

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:42

I thought the SF nib was the flexible one so I bought the Pilot/Namiki Falcon in this nib it but now I am having doubts... And the order from Japan just shipped!

The problem is I can't read Japanese (see attached chart) and in the West the Falcon is marketed as SF (soft fine) to B (broad) - see http://www.namiki.com/pdf/Falcon.pdf.

I never new there was a separate nib called "FA" (- what does that even stand for?); I had heard of "FA" before but I thought the SF to B were the size designations and that they were all the FA nib. But I looked closer at the Japanese nib chart and see now there is a separate nib variety called "FA"? Have I just misunderstood something? Does anybody read Japanese or are otherwise able to clarify?

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Edited by ptrcao, 14 February 2012 - 12:47.


#2 kernando

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:52

The Namiki and Pilot Falcon pen models have nibs in soft fine and sof medium (and maybe broad too). The falcon nib has cut-out sides and is sold on certain models in the Custom line, 742 and 743 that I can recall. It would be simpler if they used the Elabo model name for the Falcons. Could somebody tell us whether the metal one has a different name? If it's a Falcon you wanted, then you didn't have any more flexible choices. If you really wanted a falcon FA nib, then the Falcon is not the model you need.

Getting by without reading characters is easier with Pilot than with Platinum, who often doesn't use letters in nib markings.

#3 ptrcao

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:58

The Namiki and Pilot Falcon pen models have nibs in soft fine and sof medium (and maybe broad too). The falcon nib has cut-out sides and is sold on certain models in the Custom line, 742 and 743 that I can recall. It would be simpler if they used the Elabo model name for the Falcons. Could somebody tell us whether the metal one has a different name? If it's a Falcon you wanted, then you didn't have any more flexible choices. If you really wanted a falcon FA nib, then the Falcon is not the model you need.

Getting by without reading characters is easier with Pilot than with Platinum, who often doesn't use letters in nib markings.


But which one is more flexible, the FA or the SF nib? Is the cut out in the FA nib a design feature which makes it more flexible? In the West, I thought when people refer to the flexible Falcon, they are referring to a pen which is mounted with the FA nib? Do you mean to say that the FA nib is not compatible with the Falcon?

Edited by ptrcao, 14 February 2012 - 12:59.


#4 John Cullen

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 13:58

I think.......

There is the Falcon, which is a pen model. The nib is a special nib but it is not the FA nib and it is not available on any other pen.

Then there is the Falcon nib, which is a type of nib.

I have not tried the soft fine but I just got a soft medium and it is very very smooth with a bit of give to it when you write but I would not say there is serious line variation.

If you are looking for serious line variation I think you are looking for the Falcon nib or maybe the Falcon, though if you read all the reviews and discussions of the Falcon nib you might find it is not what you are looking for, as some have said the nib is not really meant for western cursive and can "outwrite" itself and lose ink flow depending on how you write with it.

Namiki makes great pens and you can always sell it if you do not like it.

Edited by John Cullen, 14 February 2012 - 14:02.


#5 ptrcao

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 14:03

There is the Falcon, which is a pen model.

There is the Falcon nib, which is a type of nib.

I have not tried the soft fine but I just got a soft medium and it is very very smooth with a bit of give to it when you write but I would not say there is serious line variation. If you are looking for serious line variation I think you are looking for the Falcon nib, though if you read all the reviews and discussions on this nib you might find it is not what you are looking for, as some have said the nib is not really meant for western cursive and can "outwrite" itself and lose ink flow depending on how you write with it.

Namiki makes great pens and you can always sell it if you do not like it.

If


Thank you - in a few words you have clarified a lot, John Cullen.

So the Falcon nib is not compatible with the Falcon pen? (lol) Why do they have such a counter-intuitive naming?

Following your cautionary observations about the FA nib, I would like to see the FA nib in action - I will look for clips on Youtube, or samples on the internet and post them here if I find any good ones.

Edited by ptrcao, 14 February 2012 - 14:04.


#6 John Cullen

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 14:46

Many people like the FA nib. Some have modified the feed to get a little more flow to keep up with their writing style. I just want to make sure anyone reading this does not think I am saying the nib is bad.

But I think you will see what I mean when you read over the reviews. There likely is something on Youtube for each of these items.

I think a lot depends on how you write: speed, size, paper, print vs cursive, degree of pressure you use etc......

I suspect you will really like the soft fine even if it turns out not to be exactly what you want. And the resale value is there, so until you are sure you do not want to sell it hang on to the paperwork, box, etc..... as that always seems to increase the sale potential.

Report back on the soft fine. I want to try one some day, but right now my wallet is a bit dry. :)


J

#7 ptrcao

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 15:29

Many people like the FA nib. Some have modified the feed to get a little more flow to keep up with their writing style. I just want to make sure anyone reading this does not think I am saying the nib is bad.

But I think you will see what I mean when you read over the reviews. There likely is something on Youtube for each of these items.

I think a lot depends on how you write: speed, size, paper, print vs cursive, degree of pressure you use etc......

I suspect you will really like the soft fine even if it turns out not to be exactly what you want. And the resale value is there, so until you are sure you do not want to sell it hang on to the paperwork, box, etc..... as that always seems to increase the sale potential.

Report back on the soft fine. I want to try one some day, but right now my wallet is a bit dry. :)


J

Strangely, this one I ordered has a nib which appears as silver - but is actually described as gold 14K, so I assume it is plated with something.

I have tried SF before (nib with standard gold appearance), but swapped it in for a SM because I found the SF's lines were too thin on average (it is said that Japanese grades are finer than Western nib grading, so that a staggered correspondence obtains, i.e. Japanese F is actually closer to Western EF, Japanese M closer to Western F, etc. - of the truth I don't know but that stuck from reviews I have read).

Ironically, the replacement SM turned out to be produce lines that were thick for my small writing - specifically, line variation was lost as pressing too hard resulted in lines too thick for my small writing, so I would avoid pressing hard and therefore flexing altogether. So now I'm back to SF. I speculate that something between SF and SM would be suitable for me, but this only exists in my imagination.

The most notable feature of the Falcon pen nibs (not the FA nib which I haven't tried yet), is a rounded tip. I dislike this, because it tends to make writing appear regularised and consistent like a ballpoint, thus undermining line variation. However, the Falcon (along with Nooder's flex lines) remains the only modern pen that gives line variation at all, and hunting for Vintage pens is too much hard work. I like a mint pen; I do not like the history and wear associated with user grade Vintage pens; and mint Vintage ones are overpriced. I prefer a pen that is my own from the beginning, and the assurance that comes with a new pen, with modern standards of warranty and QC.

Now I am itching to try an FA - my wallet is about to take another assault. I've been spending far too much on pens lately on the personal quest to optimise my writing. In particular, I have been experimenting a lot with line variation.

I hate how people don't post writing samples, and I'm about to become guilty myself of this neglectful practice, as my computer is too cluttered with activity; I will consider posting a sample later. Or better yet, perhaps start my own blog documenting my journey with fountain pens if I have the time.

#8 John Cullen

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 16:20

I think Pilot/Namiki does make a F M nib that is supposed to be between a Fine and Medium. I know Sailor does, but I have not tried theirs. I really want to try a number ten F M Pilot/Namiki nib.

There is no end to wallet drain. :)

Here is an ebay ad:


Manufacture : Pilot

Model : Pilot Custom 74

Item No : FKK-1000R-B-FM (Black)

Penholder : Black Resin body
Nib material : 14kt

Nib : Fine Medium (FM) nib

Edited by John Cullen, 14 February 2012 - 16:25.


#9 SamCapote

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 16:25

Check Leigh's blog with writing samples about the FA nib. I got the 823 custom made for the FA (see about the 10th post by soot) and love it...but it works best in terms of ink flow with Iroshizuku inks.

There are more writing videos at the link from soot that goes here:

http://www.leighreyes.com/?p=2621

I use Google Translate to get a pretty good idea what's going on
.

Edited by SamCapote, 14 February 2012 - 16:30.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#10 raging.dragon

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 21:57

So the Falcon nib is not compatible with the Falcon pen?


Exactly. The Falcon (FA) nibs are available in Japan with the Custom 742 and 743 pens. The 743 nib can be moved to an 823 or 845, while the 742 nib probably fits in several other pilots like the 74 and 92. But neither FA nib fits the Falcon pen which has it's own unique line of nibs.

#11 kernando

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 22:13

It's the falcon nib you want, not a Falcon pen. The Falcon model pen and the falcon style nibs are only counter-intuitive if you choose to go and find out about both of them.

#12 Garageboy

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 23:25

Lots of confusion here

There is the Pilot/Namiki Falcon/Elabo - this is the one sold in the US and is sent to greg minuskin or whoever to make it flexier

Then there is the Pilot Custom line (74/742/743)

The 74 (No. 5 sized nib) doesn't come in the "pen geek" nibs (no FA nib, which is what you thought you were getting when you got the SF (which is the SOFT nib))
The 742 (No. 10) and 743 (No. 15) do
The 823 also uses the No. 15 nib, but don't think (might have changed) it comes in a FA nib either

#13 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 00:03

The 823 also uses the No. 15 nib, but don't think (might have changed) it comes in a FA nib either


Unless you order it from the link in my last post. The FA looks and works great.

Here is the video of it being used from that website.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#14 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:02

The 823 also uses the No. 15 nib, but don't think (might have changed) it comes in a FA nib either


Can you (anybody) please clarify the situation with the 823 - the thing is I'm leaning towards the Custom 823 because it purportedly has a more generous feed, which mitigates the problem with insufficient ink flow/supply in the other models for the ink-hungry FA nib. Some people have said they have fitted an 823 with an FA nib but from what you say, I'm gathering that the FA isn't officially supported by the 823? Now I want to know if the FA will fit the 823 as-is without further or risky modifications, or side effects such as leakage, since it wasn't apparently designed for the 823?

Edited by ptrcao, 15 February 2012 - 02:04.


#15 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:15

All I can say is the custom 823 I got from that link/store in Japan looks like as professional of an installation as any pen I have. I do not know if that company in Japan has direct connections with Pilot to have them done at the Pilot factory, or if someone else did the work....but when I say this 823 - FA nib is a perfect looking fit and match for this 823, I am not exaggerating. I would never sell or trade this baby. It writes like a dream. I recommend the Iroshizuku inks with it if you are doing a lot of flexing.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#16 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:22

All I can say is the custom 823 I got from that link/store in Japan looks like as professional of an installation as any pen I have. I do not know if that company in Japan has direct connections with Pilot to have them done at the Pilot factory, or if someone else did the work....but when I say this 823 - FA nib is a perfect looking fit and match for this 823, I am not exaggerating. I would never sell or trade this baby. It writes like a dream. I recommend the Iroshizuku inks with it if you are doing a lot of flexing.


Is it true in your experience, that the feed of the C823 has a higher flow rate, that the problems of of inadequate ink supply are reduced relative to the C742/743? Do you experience railroading or line skipping or the frequent need to refill with a fast rate of Western handwriting?

Edited by ptrcao, 15 February 2012 - 03:24.


#17 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:30


The 823 also uses the No. 15 nib, but don't think (might have changed) it comes in a FA nib either


Unless you order it from the link in my last post. The FA looks and works great.

Here is the video of it being used from that website.


31,500.00 JPY = 401.243 USD !!! :yikes: Does that even include shipping?

#18 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:59

I am a VERY fast writer (and why I don't have optimal penmanship), and this keeps up just fine, even with a moderate amount of flexing and none of those problems with the 742/3 as Leigh Reyes noted in her blog. I posted these two photos I took, and you can see there was no railroading or skipping. I have not tried a multitude of inks, and MB Racing Green did not do as well as the 3 different Iroshizuku's.

http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-1.jpg

http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-2.jpg

In terms of the cost, I think you need to add the amount for the 743 with FA selling mostly for $250 + 823 which the transparent model seems to be selling for $280 + Nibmeister putting the FA nib and tuning the 823. I don't know if you can buy the FA nib separately alone. Your call if it's worth it and can afford it.

Edited by SamCapote, 15 February 2012 - 08:03.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#19 studiohead

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:11

I am in China at the moment so I don't have the last year Japanese Pilot Catalogue. From my understanding of the whole situation, the reason why there is confusion is that The "Falcon" Pen is marketed as a pen to the overseas markets with the FA Nib. While in Japan, only a few series of pens come with the FA Nib so there is no such "Falcon" pen in Japan. Trust pilot to inflate prices once the product leaves the country.
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#20 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:23

I am a VERY fast writer (and why I don't have optimal penmanship), and this keeps up just fine, even with a moderate amount of flexing and none of those problems with the 742/3 as Leigh Reyes noted in her blog. I posted these two photos I took, and you can see there was no railroading or skipping. I have not tried a multitude of inks, and MB Racing Green did not do as well as the 3 different Iroshizuku's.

http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-1.jpg
http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-1.jpg

In terms of the cost, I think you need to add the amount for the 743 with FA selling mostly for $250 + 823 which the transparent model seems to be selling for $280 + Nibmeister putting the FA nib and tuning the 823. I don't know if you can buy the FA nib separately alone. Your call if it's worth it and can afford it.


Is it just me, or did the same link get posted twice rather than two unique links/photos...?

#21 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:02


I am a VERY fast writer (and why I don't have optimal penmanship), and this keeps up just fine, even with a moderate amount of flexing and none of those problems with the 742/3 as Leigh Reyes noted in her blog. I posted these two photos I took, and you can see there was no railroading or skipping. I have not tried a multitude of inks, and MB Racing Green did not do as well as the 3 different Iroshizuku's.

http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-1.jpg

http://i61.photobuck...lot823-FA-2.jpg

In terms of the cost, I think you need to add the amount for the 743 with FA selling mostly for $250 + 823 which the transparent model seems to be selling for $280 + Nibmeister putting the FA nib and tuning the 823. I don't know if you can buy the FA nib separately alone. Your call if it's worth it and can afford it.


Is it just me, or did the same link get posted twice rather than two unique links/photos...?


The second link should just have had the number 2, and these are the same links I posted on Leigh Reyes blog.

The FA nib stands for Forukan, not Falcon. The FA nib has no relationship to Falcon pens or Falcon nibs--as far as I understand it.

Edited by SamCapote, 15 February 2012 - 08:06.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#22 hari317

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:22

The FA nib stands for Forukan, not Falcon. The FA nib has no relationship to Falcon pens or Falcon nibs--as far as I understand it.


ファルコン Farukon translates to Falcon in English. Pilot refer the nib as Falcon in their English documentation.

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#23 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:43


The FA nib stands for Forukan, not Falcon. The FA nib has no relationship to Falcon pens or Falcon nibs--as far as I understand it.


ファルコン Farukon translates to Falcon in English. Pilot refer the nib as Falcon in their English documentation.


Wow, that's handy clarification! Thanks! Does the FA come in F, M and B? Or is there just one size?

#24 hari317

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:34

Does the FA come in F, M and B? Or is there just one size?

Glad to be of help. Yes the FA comes only in ONE size. It is an EF when unflexed, if you ask me.

Best
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#25 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:36

Any difference in the stroke between #5, #10 and #15? Also any difference with respect to feed performance?

#26 hari317

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:40

Any difference in the stroke between #5, #10 and #15? Also any difference with respect to feed performance?

There is no FA available in the #5 size. I had FA in both #10 and #15 sizes. I sold the #10 and retained the #15. No difference in stroke size. I use only Pilot Blue-Black in these pens and I have faced zero feed starvation issues.

People have reported more feed starvation issues with the #10 as compared to #15. YMMV.

#27 ptrcao

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 14:12

Nobody has made it clear whether or not modifications need to be made in order for the FA to be fitted to the Pilot Custom 823? Is it simply a matter of screwing it on? Does it attach as-is without the need for any modifications?

#28 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 19:03

I defer to Hari's deeper understanding of all things Falcon, :notworthy1: but I have not seen an FA style nib with the cut-out wings & commensurate increased flex on any of the Falcon named Pens, but I have not done exhaustive searches through every model Pilot has. My understanding is that the FA nib only comes as an option with the 742 & 743 pens. Again, I may be wrong.

Nobody has made it clear whether or not modifications need to be made in order for the FA to be fitted to the Pilot Custom 823? Is it simply a matter of screwing it on? Does it attach as-is without the need for any modifications?


I have not seen anyone putting the FA on a custom 823 it outside of that link I posted. I have not seen how the 823 nib/feed is removed and how it would match up to the FA nib taken from a 743. It appeared that the back of the section was glued to the clear plastic body. I'm not interested in sacrificing my 823 to find out how to do a replacement mod, since this FA nib installed in the 823 is just perfect the way it is. The videos posted of people like Watch Art taking out the feed/FA nib from the 743 appears to just be a friction fit. That would likely have to be the same with the 823 if there is cross compatibility.

Reading that Japanese translated website just above where they show the images of the Forukan and Waverly nibs, they seem to be saying that the size #15 is a match between 743 & 823. They also seem to be saying that this custom installation is done for them by Pilot. I may be reading too much into the translation.

Waverley and Forukan is a kind pen that is the original lineup to 743 custom series. Both species, very good compatibility to write Japanese, is a pen to write very supple and comfortable. Also personally use regularly came every day with a custom 743, love is our pen. I was thinking always taste even when the pen tip 823 of the custom writing this wonderful taste, and wondered how good. Also 823 custom 743, issue number 15 of the pen tip is the same issue, the physical compatibility of the pen tip, there was.

However, individuals that we sell replacement at the store, it becomes covered by manufacturer's warranty at that point. In this, could not be that much trouble to our customers of your choice, after we put away for the inconvenience. Therefore, the manufacturer continued to appeal to this passion, whether or not I get a genuine production as somehow special specifications, we have continued to negotiate.

As a result, the time is took, I was able to get the nomination in early summer of 2009. When certified, at the same time as the verification of the prototype of over a long period of time within the manufacturer, upon examination, has led to sufficiently obtain permission from the attitude of our after-sales follow-on product sales and product Namiki pilot. Because of circumstances, there is not a replacement to stock after stock, of course, are produced by manufacturers as this specification is exactly the same way as normal product regular manufacturer's warranty.


Edited by SamCapote, 15 February 2012 - 19:06.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#29 saskia_madding

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 19:14

What I can tell you for sure is that the nibs and feeds on all my Custom 823s pull right out, incredibly easily. They are just a friction fit, not even screwing is required.

I recently ordered a 743 with a SU nib but it won't arrive until March (it was back ordered, the seller tells me), so I can't confirm if the nib on the 743 is a friction fit too, but I suspect it is. What I do know is that the #15 nibs are on both the 823s and 743s, so I am banking on being able to just swap the nibs.

Edited by saskia_madding, 15 February 2012 - 19:19.


#30 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 19:45

What I can tell you for sure is that the nibs and feeds on all my Custom 823s pull right out, incredibly easily. They are just a friction fit, not even screwing is required.

I recently ordered a 743 with a SU nib but it won't arrive until March (it was back ordered, the seller tells me), so I can't confirm if the nib on the 743 is a friction fit too, but I suspect it is. What I do know is that the #15 nibs are on both the 823s and 743s, so I am banking on being able to just swap the nibs.


Good to get your confirmation, as I am not willing to take out my FA #15 nib from this 823, because it's just perfect. It would be great to know if you can just buy their nib/feeds....but I'm guessing those are only sold to licensed repair shops. It appears the only way someone can put an FA nib from a 743 on an 823 to get better flow is to buy both pens costing > $500.

Shawn (Watch Art) has a video pulling his FA 742 straight out, and then removing the breather tube.

Edited by SamCapote, 15 February 2012 - 19:48.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.