Swan Mabie Todd Question

[Malcy]

Updated again, for all the good it will do; if we go on much longer I'm really going to have to rethink the format. I offer this though to the group: might it be that the post-war numbers conclude in a two-digit colour code?

 

You could be right. One thing that I have seen is that black celluliod pens seem to be 60 and BHR 61. Then there is 72 which is pastel green, 73 which is coral and 74 a creamy colour.

[MikeForester]

You could be right. One thing that I have seen is that black celluliod pens seem to be 60 and BHR 61.

 

Bingo! That makes as much sense as anything I've heard, and explains why the 3261 I got is slightly faded.

 

We haven't mentioned the 0160 and 1060 models (though someone did mention 2060). These are the ones with the inset gold cap logo, which I'm dying to get hold of. The 0160s I've seen on eBay (mostly) all have No. 1 nibs; the 1060s have had No. 2, and I think I even saw one with a No. 4.

 

I'm hoping to snag a 1060 in the next week or so, so I'll know more then.

[Malcy]

You could be right. One thing that I have seen is that black celluliod pens seem to be 60 and BHR 61.

 

Bingo! That makes as much sense as anything I've heard, and explains why the 3261 I got is slightly faded.

 

We haven't mentioned the 0160 and 1060 models (though someone did mention 2060). These are the ones with the inset gold cap logo, which I'm dying to get hold of. The 0160s I've seen on eBay (mostly) all have No. 1 nibs; the 1060s have had No. 2, and I think I even saw one with a No. 4.

 

I'm hoping to snag a 1060 in the next week or so, so I'll know more then.

 

I have seen them quite often but hesitated to mention them as like the Visofil models, they don't seem to fit what we understand so far. It would be interesting to know more about them though.

[sumgaikid]

At one time I owned 3 of the lizardskin colors(magenta,blue and silver) and the #'s

on the bottom of the pens were L312/87(blue),L312/89(magenta) and L312/90(silver)

(The green color was numbered "89".) With the help of Andy Lambrou's Fountain Pens

Of The US/UK,I came to this conclusion:

 

L--Leverless

2--Nib size(all three pens had the same nib size)

87,89,90--color #'s

 

I'm not sure about the "1" or the "3",though my guess is that perhaps the "1" represented

the capring,as there was only a single capring on each pen.

 

Mr. Lambrou also goes on to state that the factory where these models were made was

destroyed in the Battle of Britain(Sept. 1940) and the decision was made to stop making

those models entirely and concentrate on the war effort. He doesn't say,but my guess

is that that may be when the coding/numbering process changed--to a different setup

(the 4-numbered one) after the war. So perhaps knowing something about what was go-

ing on at that time in British history might be the key to understanding the Swan/Mabie

Todd numbering system.

 

BTW,on Okami's snakeskin pen SM 205/86,the "SM" may have stood for"Swan Mabie

Todd","self-filler model"(self-filler is to the British what lever-filler is to the Amer-

icans),or some other designation. It may have a #3 nib at present,but since it's

vintage,there's no guarantee that it's the original nib,especially since it doesn't

fit the system parlance. I would venture to guess that "86" refers to the color,but

that is no indication that Swan used the same numbering system for color in both

the snakeskin and lizardskin models. They may have.

 

 

John

Edited September 17, 2011 by sumgaikid

[Malcy]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

[sumgaikid]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

 

I've seen SM and L on some Swan pens,but I've never seen SF on any Swan

pen. Any pictorial evidence to back that up and prove me wrong?

 

I suppose that there could have been a carryover of the Swan Minor name

even unto the late 30's/early 40's,but if there was a Minor wouldn't there be

a Major? Or was it assumed that the less luxury models would be named as

Minor models,while the luxurious models would be known as luxurious models?

 

 

 

John

[Malcy]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

 

I've seen SM and L on some Swan pens,but I've never seen SF on any Swan

pen. Any pictorial evidence to back that up and prove me wrong?

 

I suppose that there could have been a carryover of the Swan Minor name

even unto the late 30's/early 40's,but if there was a Minor wouldn't there be

a Major? Or was it assumed that the less luxury models would be named as

Minor models,while the luxurious models would be known as luxurious models?

 

 

 

John

 

I'm not really bothered about proving you right or wrong.

 

Just for information purposes, here is a picture. Scroll down to the second bottom image.

 

Swan SF2

[Ernst Bitterman]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

 

I've seen SM and L on some Swan pens,but I've never seen SF on any Swan

pen. Any pictorial evidence to back that up and prove me wrong?

 

The 1927 catalogue, available as a pdf for small moneys from billspens.com, which is what I based my first run at the chart upon; all the lever pens in it have an SF prefix in the model number. What I can't swear to is that they carried over that prefix onto the pen itself{edit - unless I actually look down the link in the previous }, since the only Swan I've got is a post-war number. The SM prefix seems to knock off everything but the point size in some years-- there is the SM205/59 mentioned earlier, but in the 1932 catalogue, there's just SM1 and SM2. I guess if you were buying a Minor in 1932, you didn't expect much variation.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[Beechwood]

GG

61

 

And if anyone can shed light on this imprint on the end (i.e. end on) of the barrel on this Blackbird then I would be obliged

Edited September 17, 2011 by Arthur

[Azuniga]

GG

61

 

And if anyone can shed light on this imprint on the end (i.e. end on) of the barrel on this Blackbird then I would be obliged

 

Malcy wrote yesterday: 60 celluloid, 61 BHR. I have a 60 celluloid Blackbird which confirms that information... it would mean your 61 is a BHR as you certainly know but I had not seen GG before...

It has a Gold Clip?

Regards

[Malcy]

Many Blackbird model designations start BB, could it be poorly imprinted?

 

Here is a couple more model designations:

 

Swan Visofil models use V and VT (Visofil Topfiller?) but Blackbird equivalents use BT (Blackbird Topfiller) e.g. BT200/60.

 

And another colour:

 

82 = blue/gold/brown spirals

[Azuniga]

Later today I will send an image, mine says BB 2 / 60, very clear imprint.

I almost bought the 82 you mention...

and thank you again it has been very rich information

Regards

[Azuniga]

I had the camera just there and have not seen it...!!

Ok... In the last cart E. Bitterman posted here it says 60 = BHR and 61 = Woodgrain Hard Rubber... which is different than what Malcy wrote...

Mine is BHR althought I thought it was celluloid, some images..

Again I hope this helps... or make it more messy...

[Beechwood]

GG

61

 

And if anyone can shed light on this imprint on the end (i.e. end on) of the barrel on this Blackbird then I would be obliged

 

Malcy wrote yesterday: 60 celluloid, 61 BHR. I have a 60 celluloid Blackbird which confirms that information... it would mean your 61 is a BHR as you certainly know but I had not seen GG before...

It has a Gold Clip?

Regards

 

 

Thanks Asun this pen is a woodgrain hard rubber, so it agrees with the 61, has a gold clip, and marked Londres Made in England

Edited September 17, 2011 by Arthur

[Azuniga]

Arhtur

 

I have no doubt you are right and yours is BHR .. which means something is not absolutely accurate in the last Cart we have seen here... there is still some homework waiting ...

[Azuniga]

Arhtur

 

I have no doubt you are right and yours is BHR .. which means something is not absolutely accurate in the last Cart we have seen here... there is still some homework waiting ...

 

 

Oops, I misread so 61 is indeed woodgrain HR, good, then we are closer, sorry...

[Beechwood]

Many Blackbird model designations start BB, could it be poorly imprinted?

 

Here is a couple more model designations:

 

Swan Visofil models use V and VT (Visofil Topfiller?) but Blackbird equivalents use BT (Blackbird Topfiller) e.g. BT200/60.

 

And another colour:

 

82 = blue/gold/brown spirals

 

 

Thanks Malcy

 

 

GG is for certain, crisp deep imprints but as BB/61 would fit then possibly just factory mistake.

 

How common is the nib marked as Big Blackbird?

[Beechwood]

Arhtur

 

I have no doubt you are right and yours is BHR .. which means something is not absolutely accurate in the last Cart we have seen here... there is still some homework waiting ...

 

 

Oops, I misread so 61 is indeed woodgrain HR, good, then we are closer, sorry...

 

 

No problem

[Azuniga]

I just wanted to complete the images in case it helps...

Nibs, left to R. Eternal / SF 200C M / SM1-60 / SF 270C

and the barrel numberings

Regards, AZ

 

I am not convinced GG as a mistake ... could not be a special order?

Edited September 17, 2011 by Azuniga

[Malcy]

I had the camera just there and have not seen it...!!

Ok... In the last cart E. Bitterman posted here it says 60 = BHR and 61 = Woodgrain Hard Rubber... which is different than what Malcy wrote...

Mine is BHR althought I thought it was celluloid, some images..

Again I hope this helps... or make it more messy...

 

Just to clarify, what I wrote about 60 and 61 applies only to the post war four numeral model designation last two numerals.