Swan Mabie Todd Question

[Ernst Bitterman]

I'm looking at the 1932 catalogue (from billspens.com - magnificently affordable PDFs!) and here's what I get.

 

SM = Swan Minor

 

Following abb/cc: on second thought, let's try abd/cc, I think I'm onto something.

 

a = point size, quite certainly.

 

bb = seems to be the most esoteric part of it; there's ONLY lever fillers in this catalogue, and a lot of variation in the numbers. There appears to be a B suffix to indicate a shorter version, and a Waterman-style ½ for slender models. 44 appears to indicate an ETERNAL, but the others seem somewhat random. As I stare at the numbers, I think I can say with some assertion that b has some bearing on the bands, but without total regularity. 0 means none, 3 seems to be one on the cap's crown and two on the barrel, 5 a pair of 9 carat bands on the barrel, 7 a single fat 18 carat band on the cap. 4 appears to be any complication of banding on the cap, with either multiples at mouth and crown or a single in each place with some detailed decoration. 6 looks like it is meant to show a metal-bodied pen's mock-banding incisions. in the d position, there's 0, 2, 4, and 5. 5 appears only on metal-bodied pens, 4 only on the Eternals, HR models only have a 0 and the celluloid object have 0 and 2. The 0 shows up only on celluloid models with a 3 in the b position, which means only on models with an unsupported cap mouth, so it might possibly have something to do with warranty.

 

cc, which looks like it also applies in Blackbirds: 60 = BHR (chased or not), 61 = woodgrain HR, 54 = black celluloid or BHR with a green insertion under the bands, 50 = jade celluloid, 53 = is a mottled red, but the catalogue doesn't indicate rubber or celluloid, 52 = a marbled blue that I assume is celluloid, 48 = a pattern of green in a field of black, which must be celluloid, 49 = a pearl/marble, similar to modern Duofolds. This leaves a couple of numbers on the preceding list which don't appear in the 1932 book, but I think we'd be safe in adding them here: 62 = red/gold, 62 = russet/jade, 93 = gold/pearl.

 

cc on metal bodied pens looks like it refers to chasing patterns: rather than try to describe it, I'm going to apply a screen-grab of part of the page (remember, that's from billspens.com; if you want the whole page, send him some money as a tribute to the effort of scanning)--

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/takematsu/Swanchase.jpg

 

Correlating the list above, it looks like it's safe to say that a prefix of L shows a leverless model.

 

That looks like some actual progress, dunnit? I'm having a look now at the 1927 book, and the only differences appear to be a consisted "S.F" prefix for self-filler (no doubt assumed in the '32 book, although that years "non self fillers" all have a four-digit code that seems entirely outside everything said above), a C suffix on the abd to indicate a permanent clip, and no cc digits since there was only rubber of three colours to choose from and apparently no one was getting confused on that point yet. There are a couple of additions to the b position: 1 = a broad band by the mouth, with incised borders, not unlike that appearing on Sheaffer Valiants in the 1945, 9 = some kind of extra-splendid bands (both rolled gold and enameled) at either end of the cap.

 

SO this is what it felt like to work at Bletchley Park....

Edited August 28, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[docusn]

Ernst Bitterman

 

SO this is what it felt like to work at Bletchley Park....

 

Kinda sorta - now there are no bombs falling & no driving home in the blackout! :roflmho:

 

Mark

[Azuniga]

Bitterman's information is very helpful too for understanding this numbering question.

As I wrote yesterday here is my Swan pens + a list (from L to R)

Hope it helps..

Best Ariel

[Okami]

Here's my contribution - the pen is marked SM 205/86

 

It has a #2 nib, it is a leverfill, green snakeskin

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Azuniga]

Here's my contribution - the pen is marked SM 205/86

 

It has a #2 nib, it is a leverfill, green snakeskin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks in excellent condition, beautiful pen !!

[Ernst Bitterman]

A bit of looking about the internet and some effort produced some possibly-useful charts. I'll update as/when/if more material comes in. I'm afraid I have to explode the notion of the last digit in the post-war pens defining rubber or celluloid, as I found a pen with a 3 in that position.

[Malcy]

Very useful. Thanks.

[Scrawler]

excellent

[Malcy]

Another number to add:

 

85 = Mauve snakeskin

[Ernst Bitterman]

Amended!

[Malcy]

Here is some more number information:

 

SM1/57 'Swan Minor' Blue/Bronze/Black Marble

 

L205/47 black/gold/white mosaic, single band

 

SM100/59 grey/red/purple marble

 

206/60 - note the third digit as a 6

[Beechwood]

MT Blackbird marked GG/61. Lever fill woodgrain HR with Big Blackbird nib.

 

Barrel markings include Londres, England

[Scrawler]

Here is some more number information:

 

SM1/57 'Swan Minor' Blue/Bronze/Black Marble

 

L205/47 black/gold/white mosaic, single band

 

SM100/59 grey/red/purple marble

 

206/60 - note the third digit as a 6

206/60 is almost identical to 205/60 except 206 is twist fill and 205 is lever fill.

[Malcy]

Some more from Penhome.co.uk

 

L212/66 Emerald green swirl, 2 x cap bands

L212/88 Emerald green lizard, 2 cap bands

L410/90 Silver lizard, 1 x very broad cap band

L445/90 Silver lizard, narrow-broad-narrow cap bands

 

3173 Coral 1, 1 x cap band

3174 White or cream or ivory, 1 x cap band (seen twice so the number is correct)

 

Blackbirds (last two digits indicate colour)

5241 Light/dark green marble

5242 Light/dark blue marble

5244 Pinky/rose marble

 

Pen Workshop

 

sm205/83 Blue snakeskin, q cap band

BB2-45 Blackbird, olive green marble

 

Writetime.co.uk

 

3172 Pastel green

 

Blackbirds

5275 Blue

5276 Mid green

5277 Pillar box red

 

Penamie

L445/87 Blue lizard, n-w-n cap bands

 

Vintagefountainpens.co.uk

BB 5248 grey marble

 

Vintagefountainpens inc

SM1/57 blue/grey/bronze marble

 

Past Pens

SM205/59 Green/red/brown Italian marble

 

Phew

Edited September 12, 2011 by Malcy

[Ernst Bitterman]

I'm getting an uneasy feeling that there is some shift of meaning in the numbers over time. I'll update the chart presently, including more hedging.

[MikeW]

Stephen Hull (of the recent Conway Stewart book fame) wrote a series of 3 articles on this subject that were published in the WES Journal many years ago. Fortunately, I was able to order copies of these 3 Journals from the WES but have not had the time to read and digest them. My initial impression, based on a very quick scan of the articles, was that it was exceedingly confusing ... If I have time, I will at least skim the articles once again and see what I can add to this discussion. It is my understanding that this was the most complete effort at trying to understand and document this system (and I use the word "system" very loosely!). I also have Moak's book but I did not find it to be much help in this regard.

 

MikeW

[Malcy]

Stephen Hull (of the recent Conway Stewart book fame) wrote a series of 3 articles on this subject that were published in the WES Journal many years ago. Fortunately, I was able to order copies of these 3 Journals from the WES but have not had the time to read and digest them. My initial impression, based on a very quick scan of the articles, was that it was exceedingly confusing ... If I have time, I will at least skim the articles once again and see what I can add to this discussion. It is my understanding that this was the most complete effort at trying to understand and document this system (and I use the word "system" very loosely!). I also have Moak's book but I did not find it to be much help in this regard.

 

MikeW

 

It certainly seems to be anything but straightforward. Just when you think that you are getting a grip, a curve ball is thrown and it becomes confused again (apologies for any mixed metaphors).

 

Take the model 3174 which should be coral but is a sort of white colour.

[MikeForester]

I thought I had figured out at least the postwar model numbers, based on a few FPN posts I read including this one:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/156936-lever-filling-mabie-todd-swan-3230/page__view__findpost__p__1577074

 

In that system, '3' or '4' is the style (lever or leverless); 1-6 is the nib size; 2-6 is the color; and the last digit, usually 0 or 1, indicates a variation. Presumably. In my actual experience things are a bit less predictable; I have a 3261 that's a bigger pen than either 3360 I have. The 3261 has brass cap threads, but I've seen a number of 3xx0 pens on eBay that also have brass cap threads. Some of the pens from that era have the long lollipop lever with the round end, and some have shorter stick levers.

 

This 3230 on Deborah's blog has brass threads:

 

https://goodwriterspens.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/the-mabie-todd-swan-3230/

 

The '3' in the third position was gray for a while, but apparently they realized it was a bad color; later xx3x pens were sort of mid-blue. (I also have a 4220 that's a very dark blue, looks black in dim light and almost purple in sunlight).

 

Just to muddy the waters some more. Heh.

[Azuniga]

Some more from Penhome.co.uk

 

L212/66 Emerald green swirl, 2 x cap bands

L212/88 Emerald green lizard, 2 cap bands

L410/90 Silver lizard, 1 x very broad cap band

L445/90 Silver lizard, narrow-broad-narrow cap bands

 

3173 Coral 1, 1 x cap band

3174 White or cream or ivory, 1 x cap band (seen twice so the number is correct)

 

Blackbirds (last two digits indicate colour)

5241 Light/dark green marble

5242 Light/dark blue marble

5244 Pinky/rose marble

 

Pen Workshop

 

sm205/83 Blue snakeskin, q cap band

BB2-45 Blackbird, olive green marble

 

Writetime.co.uk

 

3172 Pastel green

 

Blackbirds

5275 Blue

5276 Mid green

5277 Pillar box red

 

Penamie

L445/87 Blue lizard, n-w-n cap bands

 

Vintagefountainpens.co.uk

BB 5248 grey marble

 

Vintagefountainpens inc

SM1/57 blue/grey/bronze marble

 

Past Pens

SM205/59 Green/red/brown Italian marble

 

Phew

 

This enlarges my list, and I get the feeling to get closer to understanding those numbers, thanks ...

[Ernst Bitterman]

Updated again, for all the good it will do; if we go on much longer I'm really going to have to rethink the format. I offer this though to the group: might it be that the post-war numbers conclude in a two-digit colour code?