Ad356 - Question Regarding Thickening Of Inks

[Daisy]

This originally came off another thread (Question Of Inks For Pointed Pen Copperplate, by Sherminator) but I didn't want to hijack the thread so I started a new one --

 

 

I have to disagree a bit with the above comments. Sure a better paper will help but some Fountain Pen ink is designed to be more viscous. Right out of the bottle I had to thicken up Private Reserve Ink slightly. With Noodler Baystate Concord (an outstanding purple). It feathered and bleed all over the place no mattered what I used nib or paper I used. It was simply too thin of an ink. I am sure on a fountain pen it would have worked great, but dip pens can send alot more ink to the paper. I had to add alot of thickening agent to it. Some Sumi-e Inks I use I have to thin out. If you don't want to mess with it then I would stay away from fountain pen ink, unless you know someone that says it works well for Dip pens.

 

You know, I've been wondering about this a great deal, and haven't seen too much about it even over in the ink section. What thickening agent(s) do you use and how? Are there any problems I should expect if I try it? I'm very aware of the differences between a FP and a dip pen (what will flow nicely in a dip pen can kill a FP) but honestly, beyond letting an ink bottle sit uncapped for a few hours or days to evaporate some, I don't know how to safely or reliably thicken an ink. I've read a little about gum arabic, but know nothing about its use. Any wisdom would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!!!

[AD356]

PLEASE NOTE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING MAY NOT BE SAFE FOR FOUNTAIN PENS!

 

In the above post I used homemade dextrin. I found it here on FPN It didn't effect the ink in any way except to thicken it up some and add a slight brunt smell (I must have burned it when baking it). You can find many recipes, and some videos on fireworks sites.

 

I have not used Gum Arabic but I have seen it in many places online so it will not be hard to find and try. Almost everything I have read about thickening ink talks about this first, so it is probably your best bet.

 

Lastly Glue is used to thicken some ink. Animal hide and bone glue is used to make Ink Sticks in China and Japan. Most Sumi liquid Ink has synthetic Glue in it, but some still use animal hides. An easy place to find Animal Glue is in wood shops as it is still used with wood workers.

 

Note with Animal Glue and other animal byproducts like Honey or eggs and egg whites (which is what alot of paint recipes call for) your Ink (or paint) can rot!

 

This is my limited knowledge about thickening agents used in ink.

Edited October 8, 2010 by AD356

[bsunde]

You can get a bag of gum arabic at Whole Foods. It's called "Acacia Fiber."

 

Personally, I have had only so-so results at taking fountain pen inks and thickening them with gum arabic to be used in a dip pen.

[Daisy]

Thank you both for the info! I had actually been wondering about this for some time, and am glad to hear from people who have actually tried it.

 

As an aside, I have to add that a "decomposible" substance (such as egg white or whatever bits of rabbit they use to make the size for gilding) would absolutely be my *last* choice, for exactly the reason you mention. Yuck!!! It's all okay after it dries -- perhaps even superior; some of that stuff lasts for centuries -- but to try to keep it wet for any length of time sounds like an unwanted biology experiment. *shudder*

 

Anyway, thanks again!!!

[Chevalier]

Using a thickening agent is a little bit tricky. Inks are based on various stuff,

including gum, animal glue (different kinds), shellac, aso. Using the wrong thickener

might kill your ink (or make it even wetter).

 

Let me explain this one ... Adding gum arabic to a shellac or glue based inks might

results in clogging of the gum to the shellac/glue. This stuff swims in a blob inside

your ink unsolved and the bound binding agent does nothing for your ink anymore.

It's worse in carbon or other pigment inks (like India), because you might loose

a lot of the pigment as well, because it's bound to the binding agent blob. I ruined

a batch of selfmade gold ink by adding the wrong binding agent after I made it. It

took me quite some work to retrieve the gold, grind it and mix it up again.

 

Most of the time it's a trial and error thing and letting evaporate some water might

be a lot safer. This works especially well for India Ink and many fountain pen inks,

giving you a chance to add some distilled water, in case it lost too much. Asking the

manufacturer is another option, but some simply won't tell you.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Chevalier

[Randal6393]

Been practicing my copperplate recently, too. Daughter is getting married next June. Have noticed that dip pens require a bit of "fussing with" to come out right.

 

Yes, a bit of acacia gum (gum arabica) will thicken the ink. But it seems too easy to overfill a dip pen and get a gushing supply of ink. I use a small brush or an eyedropper and am sparing with the ink when I load a dip pen, especially a pointed one used in copperplate. Might require filling more often but the writing is a lot smoother and has an even weight to it. Whereas dipped, often get too much ink and have trouble with spotting.

 

What works best for me: Start with a DIP PEN INK, say, Higgins Eternal or Higgins Calligraphy, Windsor & Newton Drawing Ink, etc. Add a dozen drops or so of gum arabica. Then add 25 to 30 % of water. Try the ink and see how it writes. As you use the bottle, add water occasionally. Never shake, always stir. (Just the opposite of 007.) Classic recipes for ink suggest using a batch for six months, adding water occasionally. Then washing out the ink well and making a new batch. And always use distilled or demineralized water.

 

Whatever works best, luck to you,

[Daisy]

Thanks, Chevalier & Randal!

 

BTW, making a batch of ink from real gold from scratch -- I'm impressed. Very.

[Chevalier]

@Randal

You should try iron gall, McCaffery's or Ziller inks, the flowing characteristics are much better suited for Copperplate, Spencerian, Ornamental work and other pointed pen styles. The inks should have a high surface tension without being too thick. In fact, many of those inks seem pretty wet to me and won't work well for broad pens (unlike Higgins, DR, W&N aso.). Thickening the other inks works too, but it's hard to get nice hairlines that deserve the name.

 

 

@Daisy

I work with natural pigments a lot (illumination) and gold isn't much of a difference. The main problem is to get the pigments small enough, because gold sticks to gold pretty well. I only made it because using gold leaf on tiny copperplate letters is much harder. I won't make it anymore, because good Shell Gold does the trick too.

[Randal6393]

@Randal

You should try iron gall, McCaffery's or Ziller inks, the flowing characteristics are much better suited for Copperplate, Spencerian, Ornamental work and other pointed pen styles. The inks should have a high surface tension without being too thick. In fact, many of those inks seem pretty wet to me and won't work well for broad pens (unlike Higgins, DR, W&N aso.). Thickening the other inks works too, but it's hard to get nice hairlines that deserve the name.

 

Yep, have the Old World Calligraphic Iron-Gall Ink on order. And will soon order a bottle of McCaffery's.

 

Enjoy,

[Ego Id Veto]

What works best for me: Start with a DIP PEN INK, say, Higgins Eternal or Higgins Calligraphy, Windsor & Newton Drawing Ink, etc. Add a dozen drops or so of gum arabica.

I've destroyed two bottles of Winsor and Newton Drawing Ink by adding gum arabic. It reacts with the shellac in it causing an insoluble precipitate that totally ruins the ink.

[Randal6393]

OK, will say that I have used W & N India ink and not seen the problem Ego Id Veto refers to. But, since I mostly use a good iron-gall nowadays, will say might be a good idea to avoid adding gum arabic to any "India ink". Almost all of them have shellac added to make the ink waterproof.

 

Enjoy,

[Paddler]

There is such a huge variation in the ink flow from dip pens, tangling with ink viscosity seems to add needless complexity to the subject. I have nibs that will write up to eight lines per dip on letter size (8.5" X 11") paper with an ink like blue-black Quink. I have others that will flood the paper with the same ink. It is usually a simple matter to make a given nib go from one of those extremes to the other or anyplace in between.

[Waukegan]

I stumbled on this topic looking for pretty much the same information. I decided to give it a whirl. Along with an order of IG ink from Vanness Pens came a small sample bottle which holds less than 5 ml of ink. I transferred the contents to join its big brother bottle, took out my Pilot Black FP ink and filled it halfway and gave it some honey. Not measuring drops or anything since honey is not very amenable to accurate measuring in the tiny amounts I was looking for anyway.

 

I know right out of the bottle using a #322 Inflexible, FP ink will gush onto any paper. It did have a tendency to still want to pool if I got careless with the pressure right after dipping (mostly because there is the most minor tine separation with anything but the lightest touch; which is more than enough to 'release the Kraken'), but immediately rallies and produces a very reasonable flow. Better results than I expected, by the way. Ink dries a bit shiny, as compared to some IG lines I laid down for comparison. Overall it worked, but would probably be something to do using only the amount of ink needed for a one-off job. Not about to ruin a whole bottle, but not likely to miss a couple ml of basic black ink for "empirical research".

 

John Theivagt

 

Edit: IG ink, even the kind made for fountain pens, does indeed have pretty good surface tension. and does the trick in a pinch. I like using it in my gold nibbed Skyline just to dry it a bit, and the ink clings tenaciously to anything it touches. Makes cleanup after filling my pen a bit more work, though.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Waukegan

[smk]

Fountain pen inks are formulated to flow nicely through very thin channels. This is achieved by adding surfactants to the solution.

 

Thickening agents like Gum Arabic and Honey change the flow characteristics of fluids by making the ink 'stick' to the nib a little bit better. However, this is not the only solution. Just adding water to some inks will dilute the ink enough for the flow to be acceptable for pointed pen work. For obvious reasons, this works better with the more saturated inks.

 

I use Noodler's Black with a good amount of water added to it for pointed pen practice. It works beautifully. Pelikan Brilliant Black benefits from a dollop of Gum Arabic. Quink Blue Black works well as is but feathers a bit on some papers.

 

- Salman