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Which Is Better, Modern Or Vintage?


Nihontochicken

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As a side consideration to another thread (which country is best pen maker), I asked the following questions, and got surprisingly (well, to me) little response (thx, Apollo, for your take). I figure it's worth one more try, as there seems to be some strong preferences for modern and for vintage. So, using the iconic Sheaffer and Parker pens as examples, were the best vintage pens as good or better than current best pens in the same price range, allowing for inflation? Original questions:

 

1. If the Sheaffer Snorkel and Parker 51 pens were authentically reproduced today in quality equivalent to their heyday, would they be considered as good as, or better than, the best current pens in their same modern price range?

 

2. What would be that price range, given an acceptable, not exorbitant, profit mark up (i.e., the same as for currently made pens)?

 

3. If nominal (i.e., relatively easy and not costly) current technological upgrades were made to the Snorkel and 51 materials and manufacture, how much better would they be, and, again, how would they stack up to the best current pens, similarly priced?

 

It seems to me that the retro pens such as recently produced by Parker and Sheaffer are not good faith replicas of their originals, and are overpriced as well, but that's just my perhaps not well informed opinion from the peanut gallery. ;) True or not, is the current PFM and 51 lust based only on nostalgia, or could those pens, if authentically made today, be cost effective competitors with current pens from all makers? Alternatively, is a good condition Snorkel or 51 as good or better than the best newly made pens at the same cost (say, about $100, PFM aside). :huh:

Edited by Nihontochicken

Nihonto Chicken

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OK, just my opinions for what it is worth..

There is no current Sheaffer PFM... as far as I know never has been a reintroduction of that pen...

As for the current Parker 51, not even close to what the original Parker 51 was... at best a poor cousin dressed in 51 clothing.

As for re-introducing either pen or even the Snorkel. I doubt we will see that happen due to the cost of production on these pens. I doubt (as do others) that any of these fantastic vintage pens could be produced today at a price that the average man could afford.

As for a good condition Snorkel or 51 being as good or better than a modern pen in the same price range. IMHO, without a doubt, and in fact in a lot of cases BETTER. I think you will rarely find a modern pen priced in the same range of a decent working Triumph nibbed Snorkel or Parker 51 that will write as smoothly or perform as nicely. Not to mention have that wonderful balance that makes these pens so nice.

Of course, I may be a BIT prejudiced... since I own a few of each.

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Vintage are great! They survive til today, and still manage to work and write well. Some members even say that no modern pen can live up to a Vintage in terms of nib quality either :o

 

However, I still prefer moderns (maybe it's because they're easier to get my hands on, don't need restoration, brand new, etc?). I like the way my broad-ish moderns write too :lol:

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Tom,

 

Of course you are talking a used 51 here, not a new one. I´ve seen mentioned on one of the pen boards once, that a 51 in its hey day would set you back an amount of money equal to an average weekly salary.

 

If you take that into account, in this country you could easily buy, let´s say, a Parker Duofold centennial, or a Waterman Edson, or an MB 149, or a Stipula Etruria or Novecento :D from a B&M store at full retail price, and still have change....

 

I know what I would choose... :lol:

 

Warm regards, Wim

the Mad Dutchman
laugh a little, love a little, live a lot; laugh a lot, love a lot, live forever

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I thought the Shaeffer Legacy was a sort of "reprint" of the PFM. Have I been tragically misled?

Isn't sanity really a one-trick pony, anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy . . . ooh hoo hoo hoo! . . . the sky's the limit!

--The Tick

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My simple answer is of no help at all I'm afraid -

 

YES

 

Depends on the individual pen.

 

Have a Big Red - love it.

Graf Von Faber Castell - love it.

VP - love it

"51"s - :D :D :D

etc etc etc

 

I've seen some vintage pens I wouldn't have in the house, similarly some highly rated moderns, and vice versa.

 

Cheers

R

Administrator and Proprietor of Murphy Towers

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I thought the Shaeffer Legacy was a sort of "reprint" of the PFM.  Have I been tragically misled?

The Sheaffer Legacy is a tribute to the PFM, not a "reprint." The PFM is light in weight, and it is a Snorkel filler. The Legacy is heavy, and it is a Rube Goldberg "combination" of a C/C filler with a so-called Touchdown filler (Legacy I and Legacy II). The Legacy Heritage, the current incarnation of the Legacy family, is a C/C filler.

 

Added info: The Legacy is also inferior to the PFM in terms of its nib. Round Legacy nibs are pretty much spherical, with no real attempt made at good shaping. The Legacy "stub" is rather sharp, not as bad as a Balance II stub but still nearly a wood chisel. I have reground these nibs into cursive italics. One Legacy "stub" that I had to regrind was actually so carelessly made that it was a right-foot demi-oblique wood chisel. :)

Edited by Richard

sig.jpg.2d63a57b2eed52a0310c0428310c3731.jpg

 

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For a guide to what a "51" might cost today, you can look at the remanufactured ones from people like Torelli, Ralph Prather and Lynn Sorgatz. Typically you are going to pay around $1,000 for a 'New' "51", you can pay more but that is not going to be a standard pen, it will be made from some pretty special material and would not be anything like a production "51".

 

My point is that if these guys can make a limited production for this money, then to mass produce, would be a lot cheaper, but the set up tooling costs would be daunting and that is where the problem comes, can you sell enough to make it viable?

 

Parker do make a high end pen range, the Duofold and the 100, forget the 51SE as that is just floating in the wind now. If you take that as a price benchmark then you can see what the prices are, just do a quick Google or search on eBay to get the range. There are other pens made at higher prices, which may or may not be as good, but the market is nowhere near what the market was in the 1940's when the big sales were to be had. What pen today is going to get sold in the millions? The heapo cheapo ball pen/gel pen/rollerball, a fountain pen that sells in 1,000's or 1,00's would be a big success, depending on price point.

 

So I will continue to buy Vintage:

 

a) because I am Vintage too :blush:

B) because I like 'em better

c) I am an old cheapskate

d) Somebody has to save these great writing instruments for the next generation B)

 

Those are my reasons and I stand by them ;)

 

And yes dear I do need all those Parker "51"s, and why do I HAVE to get a DJ "51" soon? Cos Old Griz has one and I don't :bonk: And no I am not a stupid child, will you ever wear all those shoes? Hey was it not just a few weeks ago that you bought a pair of shoes and liked them so much you bought another pair the same in case you wore the others out?

 

Jim

Obi Won WD40

Re vera, cara mea, mea nil refert!

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And no I am not a stupid child, will you ever wear all those shoes? Hey was it not just a few weeks ago that you bought a pair of shoes and liked them so much you bought another pair the same in case you wore the others out?

 

Jim

Now Jim, that is perfectly acceptable. Shoe styles change constantly and it has been my experience that if I buy a pair of shoes and they are actually comfortable for my aching feet I can guarantee they will be discontinued by the time I decide I should have a second pair.

 

Just recently I finally decided to spend $30 on a pair of "clogs" that I've eyed for years (literally) and I call the company - nope, don't make 'em anymore. AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

 

(whimper)

 

That said - I'm not a shoe nut. I have about 10 pairs of which I wear 4 on a regular basis. The rest are for special occasions are a pretty much miserable to wear. I am a comfort nut. The reason I buy a pair of shoes is the same reason I buy a fountain pen - comfort. Though my shoes are inevitably uglier than my pens will ever be (no comments from the PHaC, please.)

 

For the topic at hand: Vintage or modern. Mostly modern but I make no distinctions due to quality or the like. I just like modern pens and most of the vintage pens that appeal to me are far outside my price range (Wahl Doric in burgundy...sighhhhhh). Most of the inexpensive vintage pens just don't appeal to me and yes, looks are part of the "comfort" when it comes to pens. I have some vintage and they are nice pens and I wouldn't get rid of them. But I'll never be a collector of vintage pens.

 

Which is best? The stock answer that irritates people: The one you like.

KCat
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Which do you prefer; a 1951 Buick Skylark or a 2006 Viper? They both cost about the same but have very different appeal. It really is a very personal choice as to which pens you will prefer.

 

I suggest you try as many as you can and buy what you like. What others think you should like (as opposed to suggestions that they believe you may like) is of very little value.

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I guess it's all a question of what the cost would be.

 

I think a "51" cost about $15 in 1945. What that's worth now depends, but the CPI figure makes it about $150-160, and the GDP comparison on the NASA site makes it more like $130. I've lost in a computer crash or something a neat US Govmt site that lets you calculate changes in prices on several different bases, but my recollection is that the "how many hours would you have to work at average income to buy one" basis gives about $125.

 

I very much doubt if a real "51" could be made for that sort of money in the US or Western Europe. If you made slight alterations to the construction, to use modern plastic molding techniques and materials, you'd probably need to sell more units than would be feasible to get a payback on the development and tooling and still sell at that price. A Snorkel was in about the same price range, I think, but would presumably be even more expensive to make now.

 

If you could sell one of these pens at $150, I think it would r00l as a practical writing pen, but whether the civilians who spend that money on a pen would think so, I don't know.

 

Best

 

Michael

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My own answer is very short and simple: I like or dislike a pen for what it is, with no consideration to it being vintage or modern.

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Richard, thanks so much, all this time I thought the PFM was a heavy beast like the Legacy is.

Isn't sanity really a one-trick pony, anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy . . . ooh hoo hoo hoo! . . . the sky's the limit!

--The Tick

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For me, the vote is for vintage pens. I've managed to collect and repair about 120 vintage pens over the last 5 years for the cost of about 10 - 20 new ones ( depending on the brand of course). Vintage pens are like vintage cars -- half of the fun is rebuilding them...

 

Dave

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It's different. Modern and vintage pens each have advantages. I think vintage pens had three major advantages that are impossible to duplicate:

 

1. A large, well-trained, experienced group of fountain-pen craftspeople, with big pen companies always hiring and training more.

 

2. Dominance of fountain pens as the normal everyday writing instrument of the general public, and ballpoints being regarded by the general public as exotic and unreliable.

 

3. (Maybe really part of number 2): High demand for fountain pens as an ordinary item, not as a curiosity or specialist item.

 

Today, fountain pens are the ones seen as exotic and unreliable, the people capable of major work on them are few in number, and there are not many learning the business. Many of those are self-taught, which is time-consuming and difficult compared to learning in a factory or shop alongside experienced colleagues.

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Which is better? Can't generalise.

Which do I like better? It depends.

 

It boils down to:

 

"Do I like it?" - yes

"Do I need it?" - yes, er, well, no not really

"Do I want it?" - yes yes yes

"Can I afford it?" - no, er, well, maybe, um, no not really, oh darn... why not

 

Chris

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