Everyone please read

[Andrew2489]

Hi.. Me and my father are desperately in need of help for this pen! he has this pen antique (Picutres below) that we dont know what kind of pen it is or anything!! we've been searching for long long time on what kind of pen it is and how much it goes for..

these words are written on the bottom "Bagley's Improved A.D. 1844" Here are the pictures If you can PLEASE send me some links to how much the pen is and what it is.. thank you for you're help!

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/yoyoman2k2/DSC04456.jpg

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/yoyoman2k2/DSC04458.jpg

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/yoyoman2k2/DSC04460.jpg

 

Yeah .. the 3rd one if my fathers hand he's in construction soo... lol

Edited September 5, 2006 by Andrew2489

[kissing]

What a beautiful looking little artefact you have there. I am no expert in this kind of identification, but I would just like to tell you that you've come to the right place

 

You may need to wait a while, but I'm sure there are quite a number of people here who are experts in this field.

Edited September 5, 2006 by kissing

[Andrew2489]

Ok cool! =D ThAnkz! lol

[Oxonian]

Hi Andrew,

 

That lovely little thing looks like a mid to possibly a bit later 19th century retractable travelling pen holder, I don't know the name Bagley or the date any more accurately other than to look at the style of the thing the 1844 patent of course doesn't necessarily mean it was made in that year but within ten or fiften years of it is likely IMO.

 

If it is gold and British, Canadian or European made, it should be marked as such by this time and the date can be found from the mark or sometimes even if it is plated it will carry a similar mark. I don't know what the US and other places did about marking gold, but I would think that there will be someone about on here that will know such things.

 

It is a nioce piece and good luck with your enquiries.

 

 

Cheers, John

[Andrew2489]

i Scoped it out and everything the only writeing it has is on that peice when it comes out soo.. what am i to do?

[Andrew2489]

It's not a pen holder it's a pen look at the 2nd picture

[Andrew2489]

it goes in and out

[Oxonian]

Hi again Andrew,

Wait a while and see what happens, there are members all round the world and they log in at all sorts of hours, if they don't know exactly what it is the chances are that one of them will know some one who does know more.

In the end you might need to approach one of the specialist dealers or auction houses and get one of their appraisers to look at it but give it a while.

I'm in the UK and I have no idea about the US dealers and auction houses I'm afraid so I can't even point you in the right direction.

 

Once more best of luck.

 

John

[Ray]

It's not a pen holder it's a pen look at the 2nd picture

In the 19th century and earlier, a 'pen' was what we would now call a nib. They would wear out in no time, and people would buy them in bulk. They'd use these penholders to hold the nibs, and retain it for use with the next nib when the last one wore out.

 

Ray

[Oxonian]

Oh and by the way, it is called a pen holder because in the 19th century the part we now call the nib was referred to as a pen, today pen refers to the whole thing,

 

Cheers, John

[Johnny Appleseed]

It's not a pen holder it's a pen look at the 2nd picture

 

Technically it is a "pen holder" in the parlance of its day. In the 19th century a "pen" was the metal writing tip that we now call a "nib". The device that held a pen for writing was a "pen holder", which we now call a dip pen.

 

I would guess that the "Bagley" is Arthur G. Bagley of New York, who registered a number of patents for pen and pencil holders, including patents US004557, US004840, US004991, and a couple others. I would suggest the 1844 date is probably the date he started business, as I don't see any Bagley patent for 1844 (correct me if I am wrong, George).

 

As for value, if you are looking to sell this I would contact someone like David Nishimura at www.vintagepens.com and see what he would offer. He is a good dealer in the pen world and carries a fair number of 19th century dip pens. He also posts here from time to time so he might chime in. In addition there are a number of sellers/pen repair people out there who offer appraisal services - see the pen repair section at PenHero.com Bookmarks. Be prepared to pay for the usual cost of appraisal.

 

It looks like a beautiful pen, however.

 

John

Edited September 12, 2006 by Johnny Appleseed

[Ray]

And by the way, you're welcome.

[jbb]

So is it a retractable dip pen then? And/or am I just stating the obvious?

[rhr]

Technically it is a "pen holder" in the parlance of its day. In the 19th century a "pen" was the metal writing tip that we now call a "nib". The device that held a pen for writing was a "pen holder", which we now call a dip pen.

 

I would guess that the "Bagely" is Arthur G. Bagely of New York, who registered a number of patents for pen and pencil holders, including patents US004457, US004840, US004991, and a couple others. I would suggest the 1844 date is probably the date he started business, as I don't see any Bagely patent for 1844 (correct me if I am wrong, George).

John, you're making this way too easy. ;~ ) Your first patent reference should be 4557, not 4457. The EPO link to the patent image is correct, however. Also, it's spelled Bagley, not Bagely.

 

And technically, it is a "pen case", in the parlance of the day, not a "pen holder". In the 19th century, the static device that held a nib was called a "pen holder", and a sliding, or propelling-and-repelling pen holder was called a "pen case". The tube or barrel of a pencil or fountain pen was also sometimes called a case in the design patents, when they were dealing only with the external decoration of the tube or barrel. The pencil could be either a wooden pencil stub held by a socket, or a small mechanical pencil. A case that held only a movable nib socket was called a pen case, one that held a movable pencil socket or mechanism was called a pencil case, and one that held both was called a pen and pencil case. Often these pen and pencil cases propel-repelled the nib by sliding the band on the barrel, or case, and propel-repelled the pencil mechanism by turning the band, or by turning the end of the barrel, or case. The pencil mechanism or socket was nested concentrically within the nib-holding socket.

 

Today, some collectors of these pen and pencil cases sometimes refer to them, incorrectly I would say, as combos. The confusion arises because some of the early patents for these instruments refer to them as "combination pen and pencil cases". In spite of this confusing modern terminology, I reserve the word "combo" for the more recent type of writing instrument referred to, in its longer form, as a "fountain pen and pencil combo". Even though this terminology is more correct, technically speaking, I realize that I may be fighting a loosing battle here, but it's just another of my little hobby horses. ;~ )

 

George Kovalenko.

 

:ph34r:

 

P.S. Jno, did I find them all, and do I get the extra points? ;~ )

Edited September 12, 2006 by rhr

[Johnny Appleseed]

Well Goerge, I wouldn't want to stress you out.

 

I once worked on a small-press magazine that ran a line in the circulation and ownership section, something like this:

 

"All typo's are for your amusement. We know some people like to find them as a game, like a crossword puzzle. Extra points to the reader who finds them all."

 

And your description of the difference between a "pen holder" and a "pen case" is appreciated, as are all your arcana. Nothing wrong with hobby horses.

 

John

[andyr7]

If it is gold and British, Canadian or European made, it should be marked as such by this time and the date can be found from the mark or sometimes even if it is plated it will carry a similar mark. I don't know what the US and other places did about marking gold, but I would think that there will be someone about on here that will know such things.

 

I'm not daft enough to get involved in the penholder / pencase debate, however I can help with the gold identification.

 

My wife has a decent collection of retractable pens and pencils from the Victorian and Edwardian era and not all British made pens & pencils carried hallmarks at this time, it still seems to have been optional for small items. As it cost the maker to get the items marked by the assay office, it tends to be only products from the better makers, such as Mordan, that carry marks. Items destined for export from Britain, or import into Britain, would probably not have been marked at all. A jeweller would test it for you but would probably want to hack off a small sliver of metal to do this, which isn't recommended on such a small object. Have a look at the high points of the surface of the pen, if there is any sign of darkening on these, it indicates that the top surface has started to wear, and the item is rolled gold, or possibly plated. If not, there is a better chance that it is solid gold. It is worth more if it is made of solid gold but either way, I don't think it is worth a huge amount. Just checkout similar items on ebay to get a feel for prices.

 

If you want the very best information on writing instruments of this type, get a look at the book 'Victorian Pencil, Tools to Jewels' by Deb Crosby, it is a fantastic work!

 

Andy

[rhr]

And your description of the difference between a "pen holder" and a "pen case" is appreciated, as are all your arcana. Nothing wrong with hobby horses.

I make no apologies for my pen poindexterity. ;~ )

 

George Kovalenko.

 

:ph34r: