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Checking the pH of inks


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79 replies to this topic

#41 Possum Hill

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:29

And Montegrappa Bordeaux is as sour as white vinegar.

Looks like a possibility for an FPN salad dressing, and maybe good on fish.

White wine with fish, please, not Bordeaux.:happyberet:


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#42 RitaCarbon

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 16:57

And Montegrappa Bordeaux is as sour as white vinegar.

Looks like a possibility for an FPN salad dressing, and maybe good on fish.

White wine with fish, please, not Bordeaux.Posted Image


Posted Image


It will be great with New Zealand Lamb... Maybe even with some Roquefort...Posted Image

Sam, have you ever tried it with your Papillon?

BTW, are there eadible inks? I know that you can write a note with milk on white paper, which is invisible until it's hold over a heat souce (a candle). Then milk turns brown and the note becomes readable.

#43 Possum Hill

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 17:17

BTW, are there eadible inks? I know that you can write a note with milk on white paper, which is invisible until it's hold over a heat souce (a candle). Then milk turns brown and the note becomes readable.

Sometimes cakes are decorated with a design printed with an inkjet printer on a very thin sheet of paper (or something). The sheet is apparently absorbed into the icing.
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." -- Winston Churchill

#44 RitaCarbon

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 19:04

Sometimes cakes are decorated with a design printed with an inkjet printer on a very thin sheet of paper (or something). The sheet is apparently absorbed into the icing.


Wow! I wonder if I ate some fo those inkjet printer inks... It's probably some thin jelatine that designs are printed on.

How do you know such things?

Live and learn... Thank you for posting that info. You never know what they put in that food. I am staying away from cakes anyway - they are too carby for my taste. Only cheese cakes I love, the sugar-free ones. I'll be watching them to be design-free too.

What an abuse of inks, to use them as food additives!

#45 FarmBoy

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 20:13

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd
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#46 RitaCarbon

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 21:20

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd


Elegant explanation!

Rita, pardon my last name, Carbon.

#47 SamCapote

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 06:10

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd


Todd, you are saying that the [plastic] jug I got at the grocery started with a pH of 7.00 and then begins a process of drifting into acidity as the CO2 diffuses into the water? It makes sense, but then I wonder how labs requiring deionized water (for whatever purpose they require it) keep a supply deionized? They must have to continuously keep it blanketed with an inert gas and never have make contact with air, or those filthy CO2-spewing humans, let alone farting cows with their evil methane bowels. :roflmho: That is interesting. I'm glad I don't have to be so precise, and can just play with my "Happy" Distilled Water Jug. :cloud9:
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#48 FarmBoy

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 13:48

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd


Todd, you are saying that the [plastic] jug I got at the grocery started with a pH of 7.00 and then begins a process of drifting into acidity as the CO2 diffuses into the water? It makes sense, but then I wonder how labs requiring deionized water (for whatever purpose they require it) keep a supply deionized? They must have to continuously keep it blanketed with an inert gas and never have make contact with air, or those filthy CO2-spewing humans, let alone farting cows with their evil methane bowels. :roflmho: That is interesting. I'm glad I don't have to be so precise, and can just play with my "Happy" Distilled Water Jug. :cloud9:

We go to great lengths to keep the DI water clean. Continuous pumping through filters and resin beds, we blast the water with UV light to kill critters, we scour the piping with peroxide if it gets dirty and we monitor the pH, the conductivity, the temperature and pressure continuously. Making pure water is a big enterprise on a large scale.

You are welcome to stop by the lab and grab some if you want, fresh from the tap.

Todd
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#49 SamCapote

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:38

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd


Todd, you are saying that the [plastic] jug I got at the grocery started with a pH of 7.00 and then begins a process of drifting into acidity as the CO2 diffuses into the water? It makes sense, but then I wonder how labs requiring deionized water (for whatever purpose they require it) keep a supply deionized? They must have to continuously keep it blanketed with an inert gas and never have make contact with air, or those filthy CO2-spewing humans, let alone farting cows with their evil methane bowels. :roflmho: That is interesting. I'm glad I don't have to be so precise, and can just play with my "Happy" Distilled Water Jug. :cloud9:

We go to great lengths to keep the DI water clean. Continuous pumping through filters and resin beds, we blast the water with UV light to kill critters, we scour the piping with peroxide if it gets dirty and we monitor the pH, the conductivity, the temperature and pressure continuously. Making pure water is a big enterprise on a large scale.

You are welcome to stop by the lab and grab some if you want, fresh from the tap.

Todd


Oh, I believe you...I was just thinking out loud at how much must have to be done to keep DI water -- DI'd, once it's made, until used. It also explains why grocery stores sell distilled water in plastic jugs.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#50 Chemyst

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 00:46

I've done several hours of research, and am going to go with this Oakton Waterproof pHTestrs-20 which has a "Double Junction" probe. I have received certainty from several tech support conversations, reviews, and my own reading that a double electrode probe is not required to get accurate extreme measurements in 0-4.00pH or 10-14pH ranges, nor to get two decimal place accuracy in these extremes as Chemyst said earlier.


Did they tell you how they achieve this? Such a development would be worth billions globally and solve the problems riddling potentiometry for almost a hundred years.

Mainly:
1.) Sodium error. A high pH's, a significant amount of sodium leaches from the environment (terrestrial contamination, glass, etc) into solution and being very small with a transport number close to that of hydronium, it makes the pH appear too low. So, your pH may actually be 11 or higher, but the sodium ions stand in for the very dilute hydronium ions (approximately 0.0000000000001 hydronium ions to 1 water molecules at pH 11) and make the meter read a pH of 8 or 9.

2.) Activity decrease. What your meter is really reading is the electrical current from the activity of the water. That is, how quickly the ions in solution can migrate and pass an electrical charge. At very high ion concentrations, below pH 4, the activity drops off non-linearly. In effect, there are so many charged ions in solution, they repel each other and it the ability of any particular ion to move about falls off precipitously. Thus, your solution may have a pH of 1, but the ions cannot respond to the potentials effectively and so your meter reports a pH of 4.

Now certainly the electronics in the meter may be able to respond to a wide range of electrical signals (in the hundreds of mV) and so theoretically could give you a pH of -10 to 27, but in actuality it is working from a linear calibration curve (which you set with your standards) which is only valid from about pH 4-10. There are ways to work around this limit but they are expensive (Ross electrodes) or complicated (ion exchange techniques).

A double junction electrode is promoted sometimes as a way to extend electrode life, but it is not a way to access a wide band of pH measurements. The double junctions merely protects the analytical electrode from direct contact with harsh chemicals, extending its life.

I'm sure your rig will work fine for getting a ballpark pH in order to assure compatible mixing, but I wouldn't put too much faith in the actual values themselves and certainly not outside of the pH 4-10 regime. Have fun and see if you can get values close to those previously reported for some big brand standard inks.
Chemyst is not and never was a representative of Noodler's Ink. As misrepresentations like this are not allowed on FPN, Chemyst's right to participate on our board was therefore withdrawn, as from March 2016.
 
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#51 Chemyst

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 00:47

I was just thinking out loud at how much must have to be done to keep DI water -- DI'd, once it's made, until used.


It is quite a bit of trouble for something which at first blush would seem so simple.
Chemyst is not and never was a representative of Noodler's Ink. As misrepresentations like this are not allowed on FPN, Chemyst's right to participate on our board was therefore withdrawn, as from March 2016.
 
Warm regards,
The FPN Admin Team

#52 SamCapote

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 00:54

I've done several hours of research, and am going to go with this Oakton Waterproof pHTestrs-20 which has a "Double Junction" probe. I have received certainty from several tech support conversations, reviews, and my own reading that a double electrode probe is not required to get accurate extreme measurements in 0-4.00pH or 10-14pH ranges, nor to get two decimal place accuracy in these extremes as Chemyst said earlier.


Did they tell you how they achieve this? Such a development would be worth billions globally and solve the problems riddling potentiometry for almost a hundred years.

I'm sure your rig will work fine for getting a ballpark pH in order to assure compatible mixing, but I wouldn't put too much faith in the actual values themselves and certainly not outside of the pH 4-10 regime. Have fun and see if you can get values close to those previously reported for some big brand standard inks.


Take it up with Oakton.

Edited by SamCapote, 13 June 2010 - 06:47.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#53 FarmBoy

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:08

How about some theory, courtesy of Cole Palmer.



T

Edit: Please note the link will automatically open in a new tab-Hoorah

Edited by FarmBoy, 13 June 2010 - 05:09.

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#54 SamCapote

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 07:27

How about some theory, courtesy of Cole Palmer.



T

Edit: Please note the link will automatically open in a new tab-Hoorah


Yes, very good set of resources FarmBoy, and makes for many hours of interesting reading of Cole Palmer, Oakton, and other sites, in addition to having discussions with their tech support, and engineers at Oakton as to what would work accurately in extreme ranges of pH, and with two decimal place accuracy. They did not even recommend that I go to the extra cost of getting a Temp compensating meter since all my readings are at stable room temp. I'm confident of the readings I am getting, and do frequent rechecks with buffer control solutions, calibrating as often as necessary if various inks pull it out of calibration..

Did you happen to get a chance to check the Baystate Blue pH with the facilities you have available? If not, I can try it with this meter, making sure to have some cleaning solutions standing by.

I find it interesting that one of the prettiest Burgundies was discovered by Richard Binder when he mixed Waterman Purple (which will likely be similar to Waterman Florida Blue with pH of 3.39) with Slovenia made Script Red (7.82 pH), with no apparent ionic precipitation. I also find it interesting that some of the most highly regarded inks (Waterman, DeAtramentis, Parker, Herbin, Visconti, Aurora, Diamine) are lower than pH of 5.0, and the few Japanese I have tested higher than 9.5 pH.

I'm going to check some more inks in the next few days, including the combined "Binder's Burgundy" pH, MB Blue Black, Diamine Registrar's, R&K, Sailor Kiwaguro Nano Carbo, Robersons, Abraxis, Caran d'Ache, and some others. I also want to mix the most acidic with the most basic and see what happens.

Edited by SamCapote, 13 June 2010 - 07:35.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#55 Lloyd

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 07:38

Will you be testing Platinum BlueBlack or Pilot BlueBlack (I reeeeaaallly like these two inks).
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."
Oscar Wilde

#56 SamCapote

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 08:46

Will you be testing Platinum BlueBlack or Pilot BlueBlack (I reeeeaaallly like these two inks).


Yes.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#57 Tumbleweedtoo

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 03:20

Thank You SamCapote!

This is exactly the information I have been looking for after learning that alkaline inks can harm celluloid pens and also seeing that some inks can badly discolor demonstrator pens. It will be great to keep learning more from your studies so I can decide what inks are best to use for celluloid and demonstrator pens. Again thanks!

All the best,
T

#58 bluemagister

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 04:03

The pH of my tap water is 7.71, but checking pH of either deionized or [vapor] distilled water (which I'm mostly been using) gives drifting and meaningless values because they don't have enough electrolytes (ions) to measure. If I stick the probe in the cup with either deionized or distilled, indeed I watch it drift as low as 5.75pH, but it's not relevant.

The pH of your distilled water was 7. Your reading of 5.75 is about right though since your distilled water was exposed to ambient atmosphere and not kept under an inert atmosphere. Distilled water quickly absorbs CO2 from the air forming carbonic acid. The pH you measure is within the expected range for ambient CO2 levels. The equilibrium pH is a crude measurement of the CO2 concentration in the air.

The drift you see is actually a measurement of the rate at which CO2 is absorbed by the water. Equilibrium is reached quite quickly. You could compare the time for stirred vs. unstirred or even try blowing bubbles through the water, you will see a difference.

In large water deionization or distillation systems the tanks are all blanketed with an inert gas to prevent this.

Todd



This is 100% correct. In electron microscopy, getting all the carbon dioxide out of water used in lead citrate staining is one of the biggest challenges. Keeping it out of the boiled/treated water is an even bigger challenge.

#59 SamCapote

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 22:08

I'm in the process of adding these inks to my pH testing, and making smears in a book to see if they change after adding the biocide over time. Added to the previous list below, I am planning on testing these additional ones. Am I missing any major ones?

To be Tested:

Abraxas Merkurgrun Green #37
Caran d. Ache - Blue Sky
Caran d. Ache - Storm
DeAtramentis - Dark Blue
Delta - Green
Diamine - Delamere Green
Diamine - Kensington Blue
J. Herbin - Poussiere De Lune
Lamy - Blue
MontBlanc - Blue-Black (old)
MontBlanc - Royal Blue (new)
MontBlanc - Irish Green
Noodler's -BayState Blue
Noodler's -BayState Cranberry
Noodler's -Heart of Darkness
Noodler's -Kung Te Cheng
Noodler's - Legal Lapis
Omas - Blue
Omas - Green
Parker Quink - Blue-Black
Pelikan - Edelstein Topaz
Penman - Amazonite Green
Penman - Sepia Quartz
Platinum Carbon Black
Private Reserve -Cosmic Cobalt
Private Reserve -Ebony Green
Private Reserve - Ebony Purple
Rohrer & Klinger - Sepia
Rohrer & Klinger - Blue
Sailor - Nano Blue-Black
Sailor - Summer Limited Ed. - Burnt Brown
Sheaffer Skrip Purple (Slovenia)
Stipula - Calamo Verde Mushiato Musk Green
Visconti Blue (bottle)
Waterman Havana Brown

Already Tested:
  • Montegrappa Bordeaux (42ml) - 2.49 pH
  • Household White Vinegar - 2.50 pH
  • Waterman Florida Blue (50ml) - 3.39 pH
  • DeAtramentis Pinot Noir (35ml-round bottle) - 3.49 pH
  • Parker Penman Sapphire Blue (50ml) - 3.65 pH
  • Herbin Eclat de Saphir Blue (30ml) - 4.07 pH
  • Visconti Turquoise Blue (50ml plastic) - 4.21 pH
  • Aurora Black (45ml) - 4.35 pH
  • Diamine Imperial Blue (30ml) - 4.90 pH
  • Montblanc Racing Green (50ml) - 5.73 pH
  • Noodler's FPN Dumas Tulipe Noire (90ml) - 7.57 pH
  • My Household Tap Water - 7.71 pH
  • Sheaffer Skrip Red (Slovenia-50ml) - 7.82 pH
  • Pelikan (4001) Brilliant Black (30ml) - 7.96 pH
  • Iroshizuku Kon Peki Blue (50ml) - 9.54 pH
  • Iroshizuku Tsutsuji Red (50ml) - 9.83 pH
  • Sailor Kobe 'Black Dong' (50ml) - 10.35 pH
  • Household Cleaning Ammonia - 11.51 pH

Edited by SamCapote, 23 October 2010 - 22:41.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#60 coldman

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:57

Diamine Registrar's ink and Lamy blue-black would also be interesting, to see how the different iron-galls compare. I can't help you with samples, unfortunately.

Your work here is marvellous :notworthy1: :notworthy1: :notworthy1: :notworthy1: :notworthy1:






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