Shoddy Work by Big Names

[brgphilly]

While I have posted, I have done so rarely. Mostly, I read. So I do not assume that my voice should carry far in this discussion but I have been thinking about it and hope that you do not mind that I am offering my view.

 

I think that this topic is appropriate as was the initial post. There was nothing inflammatory or personally derisive. I think that we need to assume that we are adults, regardless of our age. I believe that productive relationships, especially with adults, require frank, respectful conversations - including conversations that may be uncomfortable. For that reason, I believe that a frank conversation about a vendor should not be off limits - but it should be respectful, should only follow a private conversation or conversations with the vendor, include an opportunity for the vendor to respond (preferably offered by the party who feels injured) and be fact based. We certainly do not need personal attacks, but if this is a community, I believe that some degree of transparency maintains the integrity of the community.

 

The issue of email is difficult. There is no contract - implied or explicit - that email communications are confidential. Indeed, courts have expressly ruled that they are not- ask your employer. If we are going to ask that our assertions and responses be fact based, it seems that emails are a good way of ascertaining those facts. I would include them and ask that we act in our emails as we would act in this public forum. I tend to support accountability and if I wrote it in an email, I wrote it. And if you wrote it in an email, you wrote it. And if I or anybody else is intemperate in an email, I would apologize and hope that my apology is accepted. And I would accept yours. We are imperfect beings, all of us.

 

The one post in this thread that is concerning to me is from the moderator. I read this thread twice and found nothing that was close to inappropriate and disrespectful. Instead, I found a frank, respective, adult conversation. I do not understand why the moderator stated that this thread was close to the line and could be closed. Could the moderator be more explicit about why this thread is close to the line?

 

Thank you

[Cedar]

I have to say that I have been less confident about buying from FPN members than I once was. I only needed to hear a few times that someone had a bad experience and, because it was not revealed what was wrong and who it was, I am leery about buying. How do I know who has a good reputation that I can depend on? In spite of eBays faults, at least we have the ratings system. I have to think that if someone has 400 sales and 100% feedback I feel relatively "safe" doing business with them. IMHO what would make the most sense is a ratings system. Something even as basic as "I would rate my experience with so-and-so as excellent, good, fair, poor, really bad" would at least give me a pointer. As it is, I feel like it's a "yous takes your chances" attitude. I don't consider that a "community". It's just business and just like the real world the big voices squash dissent and the little voices get drowned out or squeezed out.

 

I have to say that I have always had good experiences buying off FPN but I have been told by other people that they got stung. They did not name names, either. It makes me less likely to want to pay the little higher prices here than take my chances on eBay.

 

Cedar

[alkman]

Having read the first series and this thread, it seems that one of the community issues that surrounds critique is that many of the repair folks are also active community members. It's one thing to assail vendors who maintain a faceless visage, but it is another when they participate in the discussions and very often share experiences and knowledge.

 

I also agree that there should be a place to comment on goods and services of members; this dovetails a lot with a thread concerning bad sellers in the marketplace that is occurring in the community watch and members helping members forums. We regularly police those outside our bounds but perhaps a little introspection is necessary. We regularly call out folks selling fake MBs on fleabay, but do not publicly locate folks selling them here.

[eric.zamir]

While I have posted, I have done so rarely. Mostly, I read. So I do not assume that my voice should carry far in this discussion but I have been thinking about it and hope that you do not mind that I am offering my view.

 

I think that this topic is appropriate as was the initial post. There was nothing inflammatory or personally derisive. I think that we need to assume that we are adults, regardless of our age. I believe that productive relationships, especially with adults, require frank, respectful conversations - including conversations that may be uncomfortable. For that reason, I believe that a frank conversation about a vendor should not be off limits - but it should be respectful, should only follow a private conversation or conversations with the vendor, include an opportunity for the vendor to respond (preferably offered by the party who feels injured) and be fact based. We certainly do not need personal attacks, but if this is a community, I believe that some degree of transparency maintains the integrity of the community.

 

The issue of email is difficult. There is no contract - implied or explicit - that email communications are confidential. Indeed, courts have expressly ruled that they are not- ask your employer. If we are going to ask that our assertions and responses be fact based, it seems that emails are a good way of ascertaining those facts. I would include them and ask that we act in our emails as we would act in this public forum. I tend to support accountability and if I wrote it in an email, I wrote it. And if you wrote it in an email, you wrote it. And if I or anybody else is intemperate in an email, I would apologize and hope that my apology is accepted. And I would accept yours. We are imperfect beings, all of us.

 

The one post in this thread that is concerning to me is from the moderator. I read this thread twice and found nothing that was close to inappropriate and disrespectful. Instead, I found a frank, respective, adult conversation. I do not understand why the moderator stated that this thread was close to the line and could be closed. Could the moderator be more explicit about why this thread is close to the line?

 

Thank you

I could not agree with you more, and I would like to thank everyone for the temperate responses.

Also, regarding the moderater, Carrie - I also wonder what that was about. I and almost everyone on this thread went out of our way to present this as the serious issue it is.

In the intervening time, I have gotten close to 20 pm's and emails, as well as Facebook messages, many of which refer to the same exact provider whom I will not mention, and others who want to know in order to be forwarned.

Pen repairs are expensive and time consuming. And hard to fix after they go awry. Why should someone be sacrosanct just because s/he is well known? When there is an open forum of views, reviews and ratings, that person becomes responsible to the community and can't easily ignore one annoying customer. It also gives that provider a chance to explain and/or make things right in a way which is to his/her benefit.

[Elaine]

 

The one post in this thread that is concerning to me is from the moderator. I read this thread twice and found nothing that was close to inappropriate and disrespectful. Instead, I found a frank, respective, adult conversation. I do not understand why the moderator stated that this thread was close to the line and could be closed. Could the moderator be more explicit about why this thread is close to the line?

 

Thank you

 

The inappropriate and disrespectful post that the moderator refers to is the one that was removed, not this one. It was not simply a complaint. It was an attack complete with symbols indicating profanity. (which can be just as strong as the actual words)

 

Where is the line for this thread? Probably around the place where this post becomes as much an attack as the one it refers to.

 

As far as publicizing private emails without permission is concerned, it may be legal but it's certainly very poor etiquette and has no place on FPN.

[Pippin60]

I have to admit I'm torn on this topic. I did see the initial post and yes it was inflammatory, and yes it did reveal what should have been private correspondence.

 

So then should the market take care of the situation? If this vendor is beginning to have less than exemplary service then word will get around and they will receive less work. This however takes time. You might ask how will word get around? There could be a review forum, a ratings system. I for one would find this a good thing, as it can help all of us and insure that we always have good service and keep everyone honest, and before anyone says how can we keep it from becoming biased? Well I think statistically it will even out to reveal the subjective truth.

 

I also hope that this kind of situation could be resolved between the 2 parties without it coming to inflammatory posts.

[eric.zamir]

Elaine,

You mean the thread that was removed, with the )&%^$#@. I agree that it was over the line in terms of format.

I'm not certain it would be poor etiquette to present the problem differently, including names.

But that was a different thread, and I purposely started this one with a different tone.

I'm certain you and the other admins will agree that the response has been overwhelmingly in favor of my suggestion to provide an outlet for people's views on their dealings with the various providers who ply their trade on this site. There should be no sacred cows, sponsor immunity, etc. I came to FPN to get away from that.

I still don't understand what Carrie meant. I'm sure she was NOT referring to me!

Eric

[jar]

Good grief. We're talking about pens and pen repairs folk. Pen repairs are NOT all that expensive and often the problem is more one of communication than of reality. The customer is NOT always right and in fact these days, I'd say the customer is very often WRONG.

[artaddict]

I sympathize with the OP of the original thread. I had three treasured pens that I wanted to make perfect so I sent them to a pen expert. I was extremely disappointed with the results and I ended up replacing the nibs on two of them myself.

Part of the problem is that pen preferences are so personal. In any case, I will never again send a pen to that particular pen expert. It's hard not to feel I paid someone to ruin my pens.

 

Edit: It's not about the money. It's about the loss of your treasured pens.

Edited February 2, 2010 by artaddict

[brgphilly]

[

 

As far as publicizing private emails without permission is concerned, it may be legal but it's certainly very poor etiquette and has no place on FPN.

 

I generally agree with the spirit of this statement. It gets muddy in my mind, however, when we are dealing with communications commercial transaction, as opposed to a personal communication. I see no reason to communicate a confidential, personal communication. And I do not condone such communications.

 

But I have a different view with regards to communications surrounding commercial transactions, especially if one of the parties to that communication holds him or her self as a commercial entity. In such cases, withholding an inappropriate communication is, I believe, detrimental to the community. I am a big believer in the power of transparency. And a complaint against a vendor is very difficult to justify in a responsible manner if there are strictures about what can and cannot be shared. This seems to be a difficult subject, perhaps with no lines that are equally clear to all.

 

Thank you

[ladyambrosia]

Good grief. We're talking about pens and pen repairs folk. Pen repairs are NOT all that expensive and often the problem is more one of communication than of reality. The customer is NOT always right and in fact these days, I'd say the customer is very often WRONG.

 

 

I do not have any expensive pens yet. I plan to..soon. However, I do think for most it is not about the cost of the repair so much, as the fact that it is a treasured pen that means something to them. Moreover, could be worth a great deal of money as well. After all, I would think this is why we are willing to have them repaired instead of just getting a new one?

 

I am not saying anything bad to anyone, just trying to say I understand the idea. I may not have any spendy pens but I do have some expensive pieces I wear in my historical reenactments and I would not be overly happy if someone did sub par repair on them regardless of the cost. Weather it is expensive or affordable a paid for service is still a paid for service. In addition, while the customer can be wrong (and I will say yes they can be) they are STILL the customer.

[rroossinck]

I think that one of the main reasons that the thread was pulled (in addition to what Elaine mentioned) was that the vendor's contact information was posted. Transparency aside, there's a measure of personal safety that comes into play here. FPN is indexed by Google, and thus, it becomes part of the public record, and searchable by anyone. Since some vendors run their businesses out of their homes, I can understand wanting to keep that information under wraps. Stalking and violence is a big deal, and has permanent effects. If someone decides that they want to harm me and my family, and my contact information is freely posted on the web, it makes it that much easier to find (and harm) us.

[offbase]

I had a "pillar" not only trash an expensive LE on me, but also go so far as to make a lame attempt to conceal the damage and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge having done it, followed by condescendingly refunding my money because I was "so upset" rather than even offer to pony up any compensation for the damage. I posted about it, but I, too, left out all references even to the offender's gender, so as to avoid being attacked by hordes of this person's unthinking defenders.

 

I agree that honest and polite discourse should be provided as far as pen services are concerned, and that includes forbidding personal attacks from people with no knowledge of the event because he or she feels a need to defend his or her "pen messiah." I know if this had been allowed, I would have been spared months of grief waiting for an expensive LE to be repaired after paying through the nose for someone to break it. I sent in a perfect pen, paid through the nose, waited months for that person's damage to be corrected, and still have microscratches (thank God for the manufacturer's great repair service) that need to be buffed out after the mfg was kind enough to give it an initial buffing to render the scratches unnoticable unless one was looking for them (I didn't even ask them to buff the pen, just to repair the complicated interior mechanism that person destroyed).

[Dace]

I was surprised when I learned that there is no feedback allowed. Every forum I have ever visited which allowed sales has a feedback area. The best example I have seen is from a firearm forum I frequent. You can leave a +1 for someone and those +1 are added up and totaled next to a persons name. That way you can search for that person prior to doing any purchases from them and see if people have left positive (+1) or negative (-1) feedback.

[dandelion]

As some have mentioned - customers can be wrong, but there is actually some need for fair, sober, polite feedback on the pen professionals that are often used by the participants here. It would be good if FPN could harbour a sane and sober thread on pros and cons with various pen professionals. Not with personal attacks or hanging out people, but to shed some light. The customer isn't always right, but the seller/pro isn't always right either. I also think this thread should be moved to community feedback as it concerns community development.

 

Edited to add that I see a rather big difference with "consumer" reviews on professionals and starting a grading system on every member and every little transaction. But reasonable n feedback on pros - as long as it is constructive etc etc - would be of benefit to the community.

Edited February 2, 2010 by dandelion

[mstone]

of course, this thread only leads to everyone wondering who the unnamed people are. such cloak and dagger mystery!

[StephY]

I think most of us agree that some form of feedback/review forum would be a good idea. The problem is in the execution.

 

Do posters to the subforum have to agree to a certain level of civility/etiquette? Would it work better if there was a standard form that's developed (I imagine that the forum would only be useful if it went beyond the number of stars kind of system)? If FPN develops a system, should / would there be any recourse for the vendor if s/he feels that the review was misrepresented in some way? The moderators (G-d bless 'em) would have to agree to take this on, as I think it will take a lot of monitoring.

 

Devil's in the details, as they say.

[Sandy1]

Hi all,

I rather like the way that eB*y does their Feedback thingy, and has a Dispute Resolution process.

Perhaps in the Marketplace there could be a selection to 'Rate a Seller' and for the Sellers who are FPN members to have the opportunity to make a reply.

We've seen the Topics from FPNers who ask about the nature of a specific Seller, often on eB*y, to augment the eB*y rating of a Seller.

Also keep in mind that Sellers have the opportunity to rate a Consumer.

More grist for the mill.

Best Regards,

Sandy1

 

OBTW, I really don't care if someone 'colours outside the lines', they just need to be willing to shoulder the responsibilities that come with freedom of speech.

S1

[OldGriz]

Good grief. We're talking about pens and pen repairs folk. Pen repairs are NOT all that expensive and often the problem is more one of communication than of reality. The customer is NOT always right and in fact these days, I'd say the customer is very often WRONG.

 

Sorry, but as a professional restorer I have to disagree with some of your statements....

The basic pen repair (resacs) is not that expensive, but a lot or restoration work really brings the price way up... especially on less common pens...

 

As for the matter of communication... any reputable pen restorer will make sure he knows exactly what the customer wants... sometimes that means multiple emails if the customer is confused... but personally, I would rather take the time to make sure all issues are communicated properly than have a problem down the road...

 

I find the last statement very interesting... while it is true that sometimes the customer is not right, I will not say they are very often WRONG. If the restorer has taken the time to communicate with the customer and make the customer understand what work is going to be done, and then the restorer does that work properly and within the price range quoted there should be no reason for the customer to complain. YES, there are some customers you will never make happy, but they are few and far between in my experience.

 

As for a feedback forum.... Has anyone actually watched how some members suddenly go off on a seller or restorer when the customer states that he is having problems with them..... This is without knowing anything other than the fact the OP states they have a problem.... NO ONE has heard both sides of the story. The seller or restorer has not even had time to make a statement as to whether they are trying to help the situation. But a bunch of people are ready to burn them at the stake.... Reputations get ruined before we actually find out that the OP is the one at fault and the seller or restorer made good on the "problem"...

Flame wars go off half cocked when someone reports having a problem....

Despite the fact that I would love to see my customers tell people I do good work for them.... I fear the bashing that would come if one disgruntled customer had a minor problem.... a problem I took care of before they posted.....

It has happened to others.... and it ain't pretty...

Edited February 2, 2010 by OldGriz

[vjones]

As others have said, I agree that possibly what's needed is the ability to "review" a provider and rate (like product reviews on Amazon.)

 

The better review systems let you see what percentage of people were happy with something - I'm thinking of Ebay, and Amazon. In business there will always be a few dissatisfied customers, but you try to go with the percentages. There definitely do have to be standards of civility in any type of review/comment/rating system.

Edited February 2, 2010 by vjones