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Updates to the Marketplace guidelines and restrictions


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#31 jniforat

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 20:17

i love the new market place rules!!!!
it was getting rather frustrating after a while seeing people flooding the network
and posting additional paypal fees.

Thanks, Admins!!!!!

#32 MarcShiman

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 08:58

My problem is not with the rules but with the process of creating them. The rules were basically sprung on us without any discussion or input from buyers and/or sellers. My experience has been that providing negative feedback to an action by a moderator gets struck immediately from a board, so I've hesitated to write this post.

I had one post moved without warning (I thought I put it in the wrong place) and one post deleted without warning (at least someone sent me a message explaining why). I had a conversation afterwards with one of the moderators regarding the pictures rules which was helpful at least.

I don't underestimate the amount of volunteer time the moderators put in to solving problems from the board, and I don't underestimate the potential problems of someone committing mass fraud on the board. However, I thought this was more of a community discussion board. Perhaps open debate would have complicated things more, it just seems that sellers and buyers should have had a voice in things. The process for decision making in this case is awfully opaque.

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Buying: Currently into NYC and surrounds pens - Dunn, Camel, Secretary, Mabie Todd, Eggens, Waterman, Chilton, etc.

#33 PinarelloOnly

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:19

Two things need to happen with the new (positive) forward movement of this site.

ONE!!!! If you donate to the site you should get "Site Supporter" or some kind of special recognition (signature or under your avatar)
for a min. $10 yearly donation. Like other sites (BladeForums, PentaxForums, CandlePowerForums)


TWO!!!! ONLY Site Supporters can sell in the Market Place OR post reviews. Obvious dealers need to pay a yearly $20-50 fee for selling
in the Market Place. Again; BladeForums, PentaxForums, CandlePowerForums three tightly run sites with no cry babies about donating.

#34 macaddicted

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 18:51

I have another problem that may simply be related to how I am accessing FPN. I use a Mac and log in to FPN through Safari. I've noticed that since the board changed software that my post counts rarely change. It doesn't seem to matter if I use Fast Reply or Add Reply but most often when my reply is posted my post count doesn't change.
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#35 MYU

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 00:48

Let's keep the topic focused on the title subject ... issues with accessing the site or other site related issues should be brought up in the appropriate topics already in progress, so they get better attention.


Regarding the hiding of the marketplace from public view -- this was necessarily for several reasons, the most important being the exposure of PayPal participants. Once a PayPal address is known, hackers can go to work trying to uncover the password. Also, there have been an inordinately high number of people coming by to join FPN and sell items straight off because they notice the marketplace... and such sellers with practically no FPN presence pose a risk to would-be buyers.

And the building of presence is precisely why we've put in a restriction on a minimum number of days and posts before someone can sell items on FPN. True, some people can find ways around it, but they will be a small fraction.

The Marketplace sub forum has over 36,000 topics and over 122,000 replies. This isn't the record (Writing Instruments is highest overall), but the rate of grow is faster than any other. It's now a significant effort to maintain it. It was never intended to be such a major part of the forum... and we have had to find some ways to cut back on this voracious growth. And possibly consider other software for providing such a marketplace, if it becomes too much. The last thing we want to do is charge for it... Hopefully it won't come to that! :)

Edited by MYU, 29 January 2010 - 00:49.

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#36 YesIamnotiamnit

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 15:30

The Marketplace sub forum has over 36,000 topics and over 122,000 replies. This isn't the record (Writing Instruments is highest overall), but the rate of grow is faster than any other. It's now a significant effort to maintain it. It was never intended to be such a major part of the forum... and we have had to find some ways to cut back on this voracious growth. And possibly consider other software for providing such a marketplace, if it becomes too much. The last thing we want to do is charge for it... Hopefully it won't come to that! Posted Image

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There is a very simple solution to this that most sites I belong to use:

Classifieds are exactly that. Replies such as "I like that but can't afford it." or "X is a wonderful person." are simply not allowed as they do nothing but waste space. Replies to ads in a forum are not beneficial especially when an administration forces them to be one sided. The other is to not allow "bumps." Cleaning up the forum is dirt simple:

Poster can post an ad which will show up for a specific period of time; on most forums I belong to that is one to two weeks. Expired ads will show up in searches.

No replies allowed.

No editing or "bumps" to move the ad to the top of the list. A sold/found "button" can be added for the poster which shows up in the listing by the ad so people will know if the item has already been found or sold and won't have to waste time looking at the ad.

I really don't understand the problem.

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#37 macaddicted

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 21:30

I have another problem that may simply be related to how I am accessing FPN. I use a Mac and log in to FPN through Safari. I've noticed that since the board changed software that my post counts rarely change. It doesn't seem to matter if I use Fast Reply or Add Reply but most often when my reply is posted my post count doesn't change.


I'm sorry if I was insufficiently clear, but my point was that if my post count isn't going up when I actually post to threads then I would not be able to post to the classifieds.
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#38 Elaine

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 21:51

My problem is not with the rules but with the process of creating them. The rules were basically sprung on us without any discussion or input from buyers and/or sellers. My experience has been that providing negative feedback to an action by a moderator gets struck immediately from a board, so I've hesitated to write this post.

I had one post moved without warning (I thought I put it in the wrong place) and one post deleted without warning (at least someone sent me a message explaining why). I had a conversation afterwards with one of the moderators regarding the pictures rules which was helpful at least.

I don't underestimate the amount of volunteer time the moderators put in to solving problems from the board, and I don't underestimate the potential problems of someone committing mass fraud on the board. However, I thought this was more of a community discussion board. Perhaps open debate would have complicated things more, it just seems that sellers and buyers should have had a voice in things. The process for decision making in this case is awfully opaque.

Marc


The marketplace rules are not set in stone and there are already some that are under consideration for change. Feedback is certainly welcome. The negative feedback that gets struck tend to be more along the lines of "you're an idiot for doing it that way". When posts get moved or removed the member is supposed to be notified. Sometimes this step is skipped when it shouldn't be. As you mentioned, the time involved is tremendous. Our goal is to add more moderators to help ease the workload, but it's a work in progress. The process in this case was based on trying to prevent problems that we've been seeing and have had many of the moderators glued to their computers. As I said, there's room for discussion from members.

Two things need to happen with the new (positive) forward movement of this site.

ONE!!!! If you donate to the site you should get "Site Supporter" or some kind of special recognition (signature or under your avatar)
for a min. $10 yearly donation. Like other sites (BladeForums, PentaxForums, CandlePowerForums)


TWO!!!! ONLY Site Supporters can sell in the Market Place OR post reviews. Obvious dealers need to pay a yearly $20-50 fee for selling
in the Market Place. Again; BladeForums, PentaxForums, CandlePowerForums three tightly run sites with no cry babies about donating.


One thing we are staunchly hanging on to is the non-commercial nature of FPN. We do not want to have a multi-class system. Sales listings are for the benefit of the members and for the hobby as a whole whether it's from a dealer or someone who just wants to sell a pen or two. We appreciate donations greatly, but will never say that someone (dealer or not) is a lesser member because they don't.

#39 MarcShiman

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 22:08

The marketplace rules are not set in stone and there are already some that are under consideration for change. Feedback is certainly welcome. ...

The process in this case was based on trying to prevent problems that we've been seeing and have had many of the moderators glued to their computers. As I said, there's room for discussion from members.



Thats the discussion then that should take place. As I understood it from my conversation with one of the mods was that the impetus for rules changes were to reduce the number of fraudulent postings that were nothing more than scams (and consuming moderators' time). If that was the sole reason for the new rules, then some sort of discussion should be facilitated along those lines.

Simply putting the rules out there and saying "what do you think" is not really the proper way to facilitate input from members. Assuming you want input.

It seems that there are some solid new rules in place that will reduce scams. It also seems that there were a few "wouldn't it be nice if..." rules that were tossed in. Perhaps there were other problems that needed solving, but I'm not sure all of the posters (including me) were aware of what those problems are.

While I am criticizing the process, I'm not criticizing the intent of moderators - I'm only lending some of my experience working in the field of Democracy and Government in how to facilitate a more participative process from a passionate community.

Marc


Buying: Currently into NYC and surrounds pens - Dunn, Camel, Secretary, Mabie Todd, Eggens, Waterman, Chilton, etc.

#40 teeitup418holes

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 02:40

Could there be some kind of limit to the amount of bumps on one topic? I have seen over and over again that there are members who ONLY use the FPN to sell their stuff (junk) and the only replies made on the topic is the seller adding a bump or a ^^^ or another cute way of bringing their topic (that obviously nobody is interested in to begin with, proof being in the fact that nobody is PMing or replying to the topic) back to the top.

It seems like we could keep the collectors and those of us who just want to avoid eBay and trade with some fellow collectors on the board and using the classifieds. I absolutely love the new rules. I got tired of having to sift through the posts that just push you to go to another Fountain Pen website to view a pen for sale, or people bumping their sale every three and a half minutes.

Thank you moderators for thinking through this and leading the way in this process. The reason you are leaders/admins is because of the time you invest in it, and because of your passion, dedication and commitment to the FPN.

Thank you for that!

#41 MYU

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 20:25

Remember, FPN is not a "democracy." It is a community that is governed by a directly appointed counsel, not democratically elected. That's just the basic facts to any website forum.

Trying to elicit a discussion with the membership (over 30,000 members mind you) would be a nightmare to facilitate. Floods of opinions. We'd never satisfy everybody and the issue would go on and on, never to be 100% settled.

As such, the FPN staff has to make decisions based on what we observe, being the governors, and what resources we have to manage the activities there. There have been Marketplace rules in place since the beginning, and have been updated from time to time. The latest incarnation is not a significant change from what was there before. We already had an image inclusion requirement, set back in August. There was no objection to them then... maybe the membership wasn't paying attention or enforcement wasn't 100%?

The main thing is that the FPN marketplace is not a business. It is a "buy/sell/trade" privilege available to the membership at no cost. It is not meant as a high volume venue for people to sell pens. Of course, a private individual may choose to sell frequently... but they must abide by the rules to play fair. The photograph requirement is there to help protect both buyer and seller. Therefore, the item being sold must be "seen".

For the few people that are unwilling to photograph their pens or don't have a convenient way to do so, they can of course try selling their pens through other venues outside FPN. This requirement is for the greater good. We will not please everyone by having it, and risk upsetting those who were not providing photos in the past. But this photo requirement will help the majority. That is what we have to cater to.


Btw, we are making some updates regarding bumps. There is a new mechanism in place to do a bump--no posting involved. :)

Edited by MYU, 30 January 2010 - 23:27.

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#42 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 18:34

I like the concept of putting all off-site sales into the market watch area. If an item is truly for sale here, rather than in the general "market", then the sale itself should occur on this board rather than off the site. If it is indeed off the site, then it's more an open market item somewhere else, and should not be grouped alongside those that can be bought right here. I also like the 30 post minimum. FPN is not the internet version of your local classifieds.

I also like the rule about the "bumps". I've seen people bump every 6 hours in some cases, which is distracting. I'll add though that these are "bumps" and not updates that have substance (for example a price reduction or stating an item has sold).

Edited by Ray-Vigo, 01 February 2010 - 18:35.