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Fpn Pens: Stop Press

Posted by Admin , 05 July 2011 · 3,067 views

Dearest Members of the Board,

When the FPN Store was opened for the voters to pay for their pens, we had votes for 89 Azurite Etrurias, 157 Blue Celluloid Etrurias, 227 Modello Ts, and 215 Passaportos, a total of 688 pens. As 93 % is the cut-off point for ordering, we thought we could go as far as a total of 760 pens, namely 100 Azurite Etrurias, 200 Blue Celluloid Etrurias, 230 Modello Ts, and 230 Passaportos. 93 % of 760 is 707, or 19 pens more than voted for.

The current situation, a little over a month after opening our store, with primary (very dark grey bar) and secondary (medium grey bar - we'll go into this a bit further down) cut off points below each graphical representation of pens voted for, all in percentages:

Passaporto (Chrome and Gold coloured trim) :
   52%

   93%

   81%


Modello T (MOP plus Azurite clip jewels):
   31%

   93%

   47%


Etruria Azurite (all trims and nibs):
   10%

   93%

   93%


Blue Celluloid (acetate; all trims and nibs):
   20%

   93%

   47%


We need to be at 93 % of pens paid for before we can realistically order all of these pens, which is what we were aiming for. Still a way to go IOW. 192 pens are paid for, of a possible 760.

However, if need be we could lower these numbers, to a total of 500 pens, namely 100 Modello Ts, and 100 Blue Celluloid Etrurias, 200 Passaportos, and 100 Azurite Etrurias (the latter is the same number). This does mean we would have to ask a higher price for the Modello T and Etruria Blue Celluloid, as we would run at a loss otherwise. The cut-off percentages for these numbers are provided in the second, medium grey bar underneath each pen.

IOW, we would like to urge those who voted, to please order and pay for your pens as quickly as possible. Do note that any hold up here will mean a hold up for everybody who ordered and paid for their pens. We would like to stress once more that this is a group buy, and everybody who voted, in principle committed to buying the pens voted for, as was clearly indicated in the polls. The pricing of these pens actually reflects the number of commitments given by means of these votes.

We have therefore also decided to increase prices of these pens in another 10 days, the idea being that we wil be able to produce these pens at smaller runs this way if necessary. So, ordering and paying for the pens you voted for, will become more expensive in 10 days time. The starter discount, so to speak, will end.

In case you forgot which pens you voted for, the system is of help here. In each poll, in front of the pens you actually voted for, there will appear an small 5-pointed star, in short, easy to check which ones you committed to. As a reminder, here follow the links to the polls:

FPN LE 2011 Passaportos
FPN LE 2011 Modello Ts
FPN LE 2011 Etrurias

In the mean time we did get assistance from someone with a fair amount of spare time on hand, to start emailing all those who did not order their pens yet, as a reminder, especially with the upcoming price increase.

Furthermore, for those who voted and those who did pay, we have opened a new forum, specifically for discussions and questions relating to these pens. We will set up a poll here for the final inscription of these pens as well.
For those with access, you can find it by scrolling to the bottom of the board in forum view, or by following this link:

FPN LE Pens 2011 Forum

Warm regards,
your FPN Admin Team




Based upon my understanding of the term Poll, based upon past FPN Polls and absent any statement clearly saying "This Is Not a Poll, but we are calling it a Poll", I voted for what I would consider purchasing. My understanding in the past was that a poll was taken, with the result the identification of a pen which was then offered for sale. That is the basis of my vote. I can not find a single definition of Poll as meaning an invitation for purchase. Polls are taken frequently in my experiance to gather information, and only to take information, not as part of a transaction. Also, I find it interesting that somehow taking a Poll, which might result in no pens being produced could somehow be misconstrued as a commitment to purchase not one, but however many pens might be able to be produced at whatever price the pen(s) might be available. Purchases are made at points of time based upon a variety of reasons including both the price of the purchase, the amounts of items purchased and the resources of the buyer. Perhaps I am simply applying my culteral standards, as when I am asked a question, even, would you be interested in purchasing something, I say yes and then begin the negotiation phase, not say no and then expect the sellor to begin the negotiation phase. In this instance somehow the polling of a population, and responding to that poll turned into a commitment to purchase without negotiation, not even with myself to calculate a decision, based upon the specifics of the item offered at the time of sale, its price, or my resources. Please do not use the term poll in the future when discussing an offer to purchase, because taking a poll is not commonly, or even uncommonly understood to mean that one has made a commitment to buy something.
Might some people think only those who voted can buy? Perhaps a little advertising on the board would open buyers who did not participate in the polls to buy?
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agchristie
Jul 07 2011 14:42
I

Based upon my understanding of the term Poll, based upon past FPN Polls and absent any statement clearly saying "This Is Not a Poll, but we are calling it a Poll", I voted for what I would consider purchasing. My understanding in the past was that a poll was taken, with the result the identification of a pen which was then offered for sale. That is the basis of my vote. I can not find a single definition of Poll as meaning an invitation for purchase. Polls are taken frequently in my experiance to gather information, and only to take information, not as part of a transaction. Also, I find it interesting that somehow taking a Poll, which might result in no pens being produced could somehow be misconstrued as a commitment to purchase not one, but however many pens might be able to be produced at whatever price the pen(s) might be available. Purchases are made at points of time based upon a variety of reasons including both the price of the purchase, the amounts of items purchased and the resources of the buyer. Perhaps I am simply applying my culteral standards, as when I am asked a question, even, would you be interested in purchasing something, I say yes and then begin the negotiation phase, not say no and then expect the sellor to begin the negotiation phase. In this instance somehow the polling of a population, and responding to that poll turned into a commitment to purchase without negotiation, not even with myself to calculate a decision, based upon the specifics of the item offered at the time of sale, its price, or my resources. Please do not use the term poll in the future when discussing an offer to purchase, because taking a poll is not commonly, or even uncommonly understood to mean that one has made a commitment to buy something.

I do think that is a bit harsh. Of course a poll usually is noncommitting but in this case the polls description made it very clear that voting on the poll for the pen you want to buy means you will buy it too as there already had been in several threads a discussion on which pens would be put to the vote (as far as I remember). I understand that people forgot to pay or dont have the funds or didnt see the shop opened due to mobile fpn etc... but not properly reading a post and the whole thread has become such a huge problem. I do admit that it has happened to me before but in this case I thought the polling thread was very clear as there were several reminders that this would mean buying a pen. Also as this is an LE pen only produced once I totally understand and support the way it was done. As I read the poll and really wanted to buy a pen I voted but I didnt vote for the pens I would have liked a lot but couldnt buy. Why would one vote in a poll when one hasnt read the question properly??

I wasn't aware that voting actually entitled me to buying them. I was just picking the ones I thought looked best. I apologize for not reading the fine print/description more thoroughly, but I won't be able to afford one right away.



Exactly the same here. I wasn't aware I was ordering by voting. I also thought you were making up which one would be the FPN pen for 2011. I obviously didn't read the fine print good enough.
Sorry for the convenience but I didn't want to order one.

Thanks for the reminder e-mail -- I haven't been on much lately, did not notice the sidebar the few times I have been, and completely forgot about the poll! Anyway, order placed... :thumbup:

It's a pleasure, and thank you!

Warm regards, Wim

i imagine there will be an increase in the sales numbers over the next few days. will the colour bars be updated accordingly? thanks!

Yes, but likely in a separate post. There is an update in the forum for voters and buyers already. In less than 24 hours we have received 35 new orders and payments!

Warm regards, Wim

Based upon my understanding of the term Poll, based upon past FPN Polls and absent any statement clearly saying "This Is Not a Poll, but we are calling it a Poll", I voted for what I would consider purchasing. My understanding in the past was that a poll was taken, with the result the identification of a pen which was then offered for sale. That is the basis of my vote. I can not find a single definition of Poll as meaning an invitation for purchase. Polls are taken frequently in my experiance to gather information, and only to take information, not as part of a transaction. Also, I find it interesting that somehow taking a Poll, which might result in no pens being produced could somehow be misconstrued as a commitment to purchase not one, but however many pens might be able to be produced at whatever price the pen(s) might be available. Purchases are made at points of time based upon a variety of reasons including both the price of the purchase, the amounts of items purchased and the resources of the buyer. Perhaps I am simply applying my culteral standards, as when I am asked a question, even, would you be interested in purchasing something, I say yes and then begin the negotiation phase, not say no and then expect the sellor to begin the negotiation phase. In this instance somehow the polling of a population, and responding to that poll turned into a commitment to purchase without negotiation, not even with myself to calculate a decision, based upon the specifics of the item offered at the time of sale, its price, or my resources. Please do not use the term poll in the future when discussing an offer to purchase, because taking a poll is not commonly, or even uncommonly understood to mean that one has made a commitment to buy something.

It was clearly indicated in the poll message, that one should only vote (notice the word vote, which in my book and that of many others by definition is a commitment), if one would definitely buy that pen. This was mentioned at least twice.

Ok, you overlooked that, that is fine, and that is all you really needed to say.

BTW, we do learn too - we will handle it differently next time.

Warm regards, Wim
Having read through the polls, i think it is quite possible and reasonable to think that you were just voting preferences rather than making a commitment to buy. The language was not specific. The question was which one you would definitely buy IF you were in the market for that kind of pen. Nowhere did it say that this was a binding comitment to purchase the pen you voted for within one month of the store opening.

Since it wasn't made abundantly clear i think it is unfair to judge people who misunderstood especially if english is not their first language.

Thankfully i am not in this situation because i did not vote in the polls, but i can definitely feel for those who suddenly find themselves in the position of being asked to pay for something they can't afford and weren't intending to purchase.

Might some people think only those who voted can buy? Perhaps a little advertising on the board would open buyers who did not participate in the polls to buy?

We did put up a headline now, on all pages of the board :D. I'll see if we can make that more spectacular. :D.

Warm regards, Wim

I wasn't aware that voting actually entitled me to buying them. I was just picking the ones I thought looked best. I apologize for not reading the fine print/description more thoroughly, but I won't be able to afford one right away.



Exactly the same here. I wasn't aware I was ordering by voting. I also thought you were making up which one would be the FPN pen for 2011. I obviously didn't read the fine print good enough.
Sorry for the convenience but I didn't want to order one.

Ok, thank you for letting us know, it's appreciated as we can adjust our expectations and discussions with the manufacturer as a result.

Warm regards, Wim
I think a a universal PM to all members regarding FPN pen sale would encourage plenty of members to consider ordering their pen. If it wasn't for the email; I would have never paid.... I personally thought those pens will be available from stipula directly and we would order from them....

I also think a close up review / pics of the pen will greatly improve sales. I have no idea what size the pens are; but I ordered anyway to support FPN. I had to dig for a while to understand filling mechanism and nib size... It is too complicated and risky for 100+ Euro investment...

<snip>

I also think a close up review / pics of the pen will greatly improve sales. I have no idea what size the pens are; but I ordered anyway to support FPN. I had to dig for a while to understand filling mechanism and nib size... It is too complicated and risky for 100+ Euro investment...

Hi pkoko, if you take a look at the FPN Pen Review Index here:
http://www.fountainp...review-index/#S
you will find 2 reviews for the Passaporto, 2 reviews for the Modello T and tons for the Etruria. :D

Looking forward to receiving my Passaporto! :clap1:
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GirchyGirchy
Jul 07 2011 19:29
Wow - not surprised this is happening, but that's a huge difference in terms of votes vs. purchases.

For those complaining about not understanding the voting process, here are some quick quotes from the voting threads, bolded for effect:

"There are a few options with this particular pen, and we would like you to indicate which ones you prefer and would definitely buy if you are in for a pen of this type, not only based on looks, but preferably also on budget you can actually spend."

"Do note that some of the options in this poll are multi-selectable ones. In the case of nibs and engraving this means that you agree with one or more of the options, with both pen choices that means that you would actually buy both pens ticked."

"Please do take note of the above carefully, because it makes a tremendous difference in the amount of pens and the actual prices we will list on the site. We can't afford to get this wrong, as we don't have the funds available for such a project, at any scale. If you do decide to buy two pens rather than just one, please realize that if we do not get enough people actually buying these pens, that we can't go ahead with the order, and would have to refund everybody, and start all over again."

Heck, directly above the pens in the thread it states, "Which of the following pens would you definitely buy?"

Honestly, how clearer did it need to be? Size 72 font in bright red, "ONLY VOTE IF YOU WILL BUY?"
I too misunderstood that by voting I was commiting to buy. I did go ahead and purchase a Passaporto to make good on my promise, but I thought the voting was just for fun and to seek out a general interest in making these pens available.
Well, just to put this in perspective....

A far less satisfactory (IMHO) alternative to this whole process would have been this:

Have Stipula make a very small number of FPN pens --->> sell them here on a first-come, first-served basis--->> leaving a whole lot of people disappointed

The above situation happened on another site we all know and lots & lots of folks missed out on buying that limited edition pen :(

At least here, we were given a chance to reserve (which is what the polls were, in essence) a specific pen for ourselves...and for that, I am grateful :D
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GirchyGirchy
Jul 08 2011 01:35

At least here, we were given a chance to reserve (which is what the polls were, in essence) a specific pen for ourselves...and for that, I am grateful :D


Unless people don't pony up the cash, in which case nobody receives a thing.
Perhaps I am being unclear. I can find no definition of Poll in the English Language which means an offer to buy, nor any definition of vote as an exercising of an option to buy. If the words used origonally were not in english and they somehow were mistranslated into English, I understand this, but if not, then I would like to know where this new use of the terms poll and vote came from.
Perhaps the problem is that there was no software up and running to function as a buying mechanism, and the Poll and Vote mechanism was used instead. If that was the case, then a clear disclaimer at the beginning would have been, "This is not a Poll, but an invitation to purchase one or more of the following pens. Please ignore the word Poll and think Offer. Also, you are not Voting on a pen when it says Vote, but are exercising a purchase option. We will try to change the labels in the future, but for now this is the only mechanism we have to use. Again, we are sorry for the use of such a confusing mechanism."

Perhaps I am being unclear. I can find no definition of Poll in the English Language which means an offer to buy, nor any definition of vote as an exercising of an option to buy.


The usage of the word 'poll' is completely irrelevant. The first question in the poll is "Which of the following pens would you definitely buy?" The intent to purchase is quite clearly communicated by that simple question. I see no reason to blame those who put together the group buy for a lack of reading comprehension.
Although I can understand wanting to get these pens into production and being frustrated that the process is taking longer than expected, people do have the right to change their mind. I suspect a number of people (including myself) skimmed the rules and decided to vote for a pen design(s) they liked without considering the ramifications. While I did choose to buy a pen after understanding the implications of voting, I don't think it's productive to pick on those to decided not to buy a pen.

I also don't think that the people who put together this group buy are in any way to blame. The rules were clear, but there may have been some translation issues or people just not taking the time to read the rules carefully. I'm in the latter category and I apologize if I screwed things up for others and if other members are upset with me or anyone else who was late with payment or has not/will not pay.

This whole issue seems to be growing a bit out of proportion so I'm just going to take a step back now that I've gotten this off my chest.
I really can see both sides (I guess that's what happens when you've been on FPN for almost 7 years :D )....
The pens are beautiful :puddle: and some people might have thought they were just expressing an opinion about which one they liked best. I can understand that. One thing about that reason struck me though...and that is that I would have expected much higher poll participation (given that we have over 51,000 members). Since only a fraction of the membership voted, a lot of them must have known they were voting to buy. I don't blame anyone for the confusion, though. Wim & the Admin team have worked hard to get this project rolling, and hopefully we will get some nice pens produced as a result :)

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